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TOPIC: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming

How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206925

  • bsol5071
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Hello!

I have some questions regarding Lightworks 14.5.

My intention is fairly simple... I want to rotate a square image (5000x5000 pixels in full frame) in a 4k video without having to zoom to avoid the DVE rotation showing the clip's black boundries on the top and bottom. I am also having an issue with rotation center point precision.

The way I am doing it now is to add an image key to V1 with the square image as the image, then add a 3D DVE on top of it to both rotate it and apply a "zoom" effect by changing the "Z" position of the 3D DVE to -1.49. This solves my issues of the clip's rectangular shape showing when rotating, but it introduces a resolution issue and potentially a rotation center point precision issue.

What I mean by the precision issue is this: When I apply a rotation, the center point "wobbles" very slightly. I can evaluate this best by making a very small perfectly centered circle on the image I am trying to rotate. When in rotation, you can see that the center circle itself wobbles when it should remain absolutely still.

Are there any better methods to create this effect without these drawbacks?

Thanks!

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206935

  • briandrys
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Welcome to the forum.

Have a look at this sticky, use the image key method. Set the image to a size that doesn't show edges and then rotate: www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=7&id=184566&Itemid=81

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206939

  • hugly
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I would think it's not possible to rotate a frame (without losing edges) over the Z-axis without scaling on the Z-axis (with 3D-DVE), no matter how it's been ingested, as image key or regularly imported. It might be that a user effect exists to rotate a plane bigger than frame dimensions without scaling, but I don't now.
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Last Edit: 8 months, 2 weeks ago by hugly.

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206943

  • jwrl
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It could probably be done, but the image name would have to be hard coded into the effect as things stand at the moment. Even so, I suspect that the limitation of the image being sized before the effect was applied to it would still apply. In short, as things stand, no.

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206945

  • schrauber
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bsol5071 wrote:
The way I am doing it now is to add an image key to V1 with the square image as the image, then add a 3D DVE on top of it to both rotate it and apply a "zoom" effect by changing the "Z" position of the 3D DVE to -1.49. This solves my issues of the clip's rectangular shape showing when rotating, but it introduces a resolution issue and potentially a rotation center point precision issue.


I would do the basic scaling first in the image effect (with the 3D DVE effect switched off). The image effect can access the original resolution). If you want to zoom in more to show certain details, you can also do the centering in the original image in the Image Effect (provided you zoomed so that no edges are visible).

When rotating with the DVE, you must also zoom in. In my test -1.2 was sufficient, with a 16/9 project aspect ratio. The DVE effect cannot access the original resolution, but only what is output from the image effect. Ideally, you would export to 4K / UHD because this resolution also determines the resolution of the texture that is transferred from the image effect to the DVE effect.

Should the rotation center be in the center of the frame? In this case please make sure that all parameters of the 3d DVE effect are set to the default settings (except for the Z rotation). Position changes in the DVE effect with strong DVE zoom can lead to problems with the rotation center. The "Pivot" and "Crop" parameters also affect this.
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Software: Lightworks 2020.1; || Windows 10, 64 Bit
Hardware: Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz); || shared RAM: 8 GB; || Intel HD Graphics 4600 (can use max. 2 GB of shared RAM)

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206947

  • schrauber
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jwrl wrote:
It could probably be done, but the image name would have to be hard coded into the effect as things stand at the moment.

That's what I think. A rotation effect that loads the image file defined in the effect code from the folder "Effect Templates". Unfortunately uncomfortable. Such an effect could also use the original resolution of the image for the rotation when zooming.
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Software: Lightworks 2020.1; || Windows 10, 64 Bit
Hardware: Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz); || shared RAM: 8 GB; || Intel HD Graphics 4600 (can use max. 2 GB of shared RAM)

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206948

  • hugly
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schrauber wrote:
I would do the basic scaling first in the image effect (with the 3D DVE effect switched off).

Just a thought: Since the image key is cropped to frame dimensions, prior to reaching the 3D-DVE no matter how scaled, wouldn't it be better, in a 4K project, to drop the image key entirely and import the 'normal' way?
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Last Edit: 8 months, 2 weeks ago by hugly.

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206949

  • bsol5071
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Thanks for all of your help. It looks like I am basically doing it the right way; I am using the Ultra HD project format and exporting to Cineform MOV 4K. With this aspect ratio, it looks like -1.26 is the magic number for the Z-axis zoom on the 3D-DVE.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think there is any advantage to starting with an imported image file on the video track instead of an image key. I don't know if there would be an output quality difference, but in terms of workflow, there is an extra step needed of a 2D DVE to first scale up the image on the video track so that it is full frame (a square image first imports to fit the frame, top to bottom). Then, the same issue occurs when trying to rotate using the 3D DVE; it still maintains the frame edges of the clip so I still need the -1.26 Z Axis position with the 3D DVE.

The way it seems to work best actually is to apply a compensating / lowering scale to the image key to counteract the zoom that you get from the 3D DVE. With a 5000x5000 pixel square image in an Ultra-HD project, I seem to get the best results by applying a 0.2 master scale to the image key and the -1.26 Z position on the 3D DVE. I'm not sure if this will work in the long run though in terms of output quality for my needs; it seems like it puts the image through a lot of processing and would likely cause some degradation.

It does seem to be the Z position "zoom" on the 3D DVE that is causing the wobble -- it probably exaggerates the very small inaccuracy of the center point as due center, but it seems like there could be improvement there in the future if this is what is causing the issue with this method in the software. Either way, using this counter-scale seems to bring the wobble down to an almost unnoticeable level which may work.

Thanks again to all of you for all of the help!

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 2 weeks ago #206953

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In a few cases it is also possible to work with edge reflection. However, this is strongly dependent on the image and much more. It would have the advantage to be able to work with lower zoom.
Example:
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Rotation and edge reflection are handled by the user effect "Spin Zoom".
Note that the edge reflection works correctly if there is a texture without black bars at the effect input (note the scaling settings in the image effect).

If necessary, it would also be possible with other effects to cover black bars with adjustable reflection edges.

Of course such edge reflections have nothing to do with reality. Therefore it is always a case-by-case decision whether it is acceptable or not.
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Software: Lightworks 2020.1; || Windows 10, 64 Bit
Hardware: Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz); || shared RAM: 8 GB; || Intel HD Graphics 4600 (can use max. 2 GB of shared RAM)

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207210

  • bsol5071
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For the time being, it seems like this kind of effect is outside the limitations of lightworks. No matter how I set up the image, it requires a -1.26 Z position on the 3D DVE to not show the clip bounds, which just completely ruins the image quality to a level way below acceptable for my needs. Thanks again everyone for your help

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207214

  • khaver
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I think at some point the devs will have to address this since more and more workflows involve shooting at a higher resolution than required for delivery so reframing can be done. This is the main reason I switched to another NLE. I shoot 1080 and deliver 720. I record my churches sermons using 2 cams, each slightly wider than needed. This allows me to zoom in slightly and reframe so cuts between the close and wide shots blend better (I make sure the speakers head is framed in each shot at approximately the same location).
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Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207272

  • schrauber
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bsol5071 wrote:
For the time being, it seems like this kind of effect is outside the limitations of lightworks. No matter how I set up the image, it requires a -1.26 Z position ..


If you are interested, then I could probably rewrite the "Spin Zoom" effect so that it could use the original resolution of your image file. Then you wouldn't need the image effect and the 3D-DVE anymore.
However, this only makes sense if the quality of your image is very high, because the zoom is still necessary. If there are multiple images it would be too complicated because the image file name would have to be programmed directly in the effect.

The alternatives are edge reflection as shown above or other effects that fill the empty black areas with parts of the image.
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Software: Lightworks 2020.1; || Windows 10, 64 Bit
Hardware: Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz); || shared RAM: 8 GB; || Intel HD Graphics 4600 (can use max. 2 GB of shared RAM)

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207390

  • bsol5071
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Thank you so much for the offer but you don't need to go out of your way, I have another method for this type of rotation for now outside of lightworks. It seems like it wouldn't be too difficult for the software developers to incorporate an element-based rotation effect to avoid this issue in the future or to make a properly routed 3D DVE effect not move the clip itself.

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207408

  • RWAV
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Perhaps am missing something in the described workflow - but don't see any centre wobble here.

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Last Edit: 8 months, 1 week ago by RWAV.

Re: How to Rotate Full Frame Image without Losing Edges or Zooming 8 months, 1 week ago #207410

  • hugly
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There are use cases where 'center wobble' is the main part the show:

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Last Edit: 8 months, 1 week ago by hugly.
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