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TOPIC: Methods carried over from other NLEs and training resources

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187771

  • RWAV
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Of course the function exists. That isn't the point
Really? What is the point then?

The user olsenart's insistence that a clustered menu concept is essential 'best practice' and LW was context sensitive object specific drop-downs are deficient was 'hit', as hugly puts, it simply because LW users disagreed.

olsenart declared that issue would terminate their a interest in LW - so what is the point?

Surely olsenart was entitled to make that choice, surely LW developers and LW users are entitled to disagree with that person's point of view.

Surely it is not essential for LW developers and the community of LW users to jump to every observation made by every person assessing the suitability of LW from their own perspective?

Is the proposal that there be 4,451,072 variants of LW, enough to unconditionally please everyone?

Quoting olsenart's foray into LW is somewhere on the spurious to pointless spectrum.
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Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187775

RWAV wrote:

The misinformation and misunderstanding of some on this forum as well as the constant breathless hunt for and announcement 'bugs' is allowing parties with different interests to drive a wedge between LW and the industrial/professional users base.


Misinformation or lack of information?

I will not argue about one NLE being better or worst than the other. Probably they all have their pro and cons. Speaking only for my case, I chose Lightworks just because this was the only professional-grade (or simply the only working) NLE available on Linux at that time. One difficult thing was, beyond the manual and a couple of videos made for a previous LW version, the information was sparse and scattered into hundreds of forum posts. And even after a few years or regular use, I'm still discovering "basic" features such as traced sequences or prints.

The forum is great, with many experienced people from different background and that leads to interesting discussions. But sometimes this also leads to strong opinions expressed in a vigorous way, something that can be quite intimidating, or even feel hostile, for new users. And if a forum is essential, sometimes you just want to "consume" information without entering into a long discussion. If you consider FCP or Premiere, there are countless video tutorials, ebook or even online courses readily available. Compare those results:

* "J cut"+lightworks: <50 video results
* "J cut"+premiere: >3300 results
* "J cut"+final+cut: >3600 results

With such figures, it is quite understandable for a new user to be biased toward the FCP/Premiere way of doing. As I said before, there are many experienced users hanging around here. And members like Hugly and the moderators are making a tremendous work. But a lot of time is spent answering the same questions again and again. If we had a more structured knowledge repository to directly point users to that could improve the signal-noise ratio on the forum. It would also help in maintaining the information up to date with the current LW version. Not mentioning it could also make LW more appealing for a larger fan-base. There was an attempt for an unofficial Lightworks wiki, but apparently, it is dead. What about reviving that project?
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187777

  • briandrys
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In the early years of Editshare owning Lightworks there were rumours of a third party manual such as the “Dummy” series or the Focal Press books. However, this didn’t happen. A search on Amazon for any of the three "A" NLEs will show you the range for these (aimed at the either the professional or would be pro).

The downside to these books, excellent as they are, is that they are relatively expensive (one for another NLE costs £30.) and many users don’t want to use a workbook as a reference. The User Guide on this site (downloads > documentation) seems to be passed over by many, even though it’s not a dense read.

The official Lightworks are well done and even the old ones usually can still be applied to V14 if you follow the procedures. However, they tend to be setting you on your way to understanding Lightworks, rather than giving the how to do the effect that a user wants to do at a particular moment. This may be partly due for the tendency for new users to have a video that they want to edit, rather than initially learning Lightworks so that they can edit videos in the future.

The unofficial online videos are of variable quality and quite a few appear to be made by someone who has just learnt how to do an operation (not always in the best or most efficient fashion).

However, there are some producers of these videos who give good clear instructions and have a playlist of Lightworks videos which cover common questions. I was considering putting up a sticky with links to these playlists. Although, I don’t think it’ll stop users asking the same questions, which very often could be answered by using the forum’s search.
Last Edit: 1 month ago by briandrys.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187785

  • hugly
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Sylvain Leroux wrote:
There was an attempt for an unofficial Lightworks wiki, but apparently, it is dead. What about reviving that project?

That is a good proposal.

The downside, good documentation costs a lot of time and money. Most software companies pay whole departments just for documentation. I suspect, Editshare apparently hasn't the money and forum members tend to have not enough time. I think this project will be dead just before it's started.

On the other hand, if you decide to commit yourself to investing your personal time without any salary in this project for a longer period and if you are willing to take the lead , I'm willing to support.
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Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187786

hugly wrote:

On the other hand, if you decide to commit yourself to investing your personal time without any salary in this project for a longer period and if you are willing to take the lead , I'm willing to support.

Thanks Hugly. I will take a look at that this WE.
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187837

  • briandrys
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Just as an aside, I ran a google search for Lightworks editor listed 109,000 videos. I checked in for a bit and they still referred to the Lightworks NLE, rather than other products with the Lightworks name.
Last Edit: 1 month ago by briandrys.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187841

  • briandrys
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The Hints and Tops in documentation hasn't been updated since 2012. This was created by users and still does show useful info, even though it hasn't been a "growing extract" from posts on the forum in practice.
Last Edit: 1 month ago by briandrys.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187905

This topic has seriously side-tracked, but out of curiosity I checked on Google Trend about various NLE popularity in search terms:


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Source: trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Adobe%20Premiere%20Pro,Lightworks,Final%20Cut%20Pro,DaVinci%20Resolve&geo=,,,&date=2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12&cat=32#TIMESERIES

I was surprised to see how DaVinci resolve is slowing but undoubtedly becoming more popular than LW in search terms. The two lines crossed somewhere near end-2017
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187951

  • jwrl
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What I find interesting is that Avid don't appear at all in that graph.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187953

jwrl wrote:
What I find interesting is that Avid don't appear at all in that graph.
I just forgot to mention it :/


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trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=32&date=2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12,2014-10-12%202018-11-12&geo=,,,,&q=Adobe%20Premiere%20Pro,Lightworks,Final%20Cut%20Pro,DaVinci%20Resolve,Avid#TIMESERIES

One might also have wanted to see Sony Vegas but Google Trend only allows up to 5 search terms to compare. But I let you tweak the graph URL to adjust to whatever NLE you want to compare that with.
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187964

  • jwrl
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I hadn't realised that you'd limited the search. But it looks as if when BMD acquires a decent art package it will take over the world!

Personally, I think that the future will be whatever the kids are taught in school.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #187999

  • briandrys
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I guess those graphs show that Editshare really does need to be on the ball for promoting Lightworks. On a limited marketing budget you need to be imaginative in how you present the product and never miss any opportunity.

EDIT I notice that the Creative Cow Forum no longer has a Lightworks forum section or tutorials section.
Last Edit: 1 month ago by briandrys.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #188004

I agree, briandrys, jwrl.

jwrl wrote:
Personally, I think that the future will be whatever the kids are taught in school.


That brings back to my earlier point. Education and documentation is a key point if we want to extend (or simply maintain) the LW user base. I don't have any figures, but I assume there are currently two distinct groups of "professional" LW users. Those who learned video editing or filming at school. Probably with one of the two or three major NLE. And self-taught video editors that will use whatever as long as they can find resources for.

Lightworks, DaVinci and the opensource Kdenlive are chasing on overlapping markets here by providing a free version (LW and BMD are free as in beer, Kdenlive is free as in speech) and all of them are working on Linux, which proves an interest for that niche market. That could put them one step ahead if Linux on the Desktop finally take off, which would come earlier than we had previously thought given the current privacy concerns surrounding the Windows operating system.

I made the following two graphs comparing the relative popularity of those three products over the last two years:


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trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=Lightworks,DaVinci%20Resolve,Kdenlive&geo=,,&date=2016-10-12%202018-11-12,2016-10-12%202018-11-12,2016-10-12%202018-11-12&cat=32#GEO_MAP



briandrys wrote:
I guess those graphs show that Editshare really does need to be on the ball for promoting Lightworks. On a limited marketing budget you need to be imaginative in how you present the product and never miss any opportunity.


I joined LW after the hype around a possible "opensourcing" of the software. I don't know if this would have been a good or bad move, given the code base is probably huge and undoubtedly contains legacy code inherited from decades of development. But given the efforts made by the community to develop custom shader-based effects, I can only imagine what could be done if we had some public API to develop extensions or plug-ins. Or what if we had a proper scripting language to automate tasks, or "emulate" features found in other NLE. That's probably the Linux/Geek/Hacker part of me speaking, but I dream of seeing a Lua or embedded JavaScript interpreter into LW! Indeed, that's not what "professional" video editors are looking for. But that would probably be appealing for that second share of users I was talking about earlier and instead of putting pressure on the LW dev team to develop a new "razor blade" tool or claiming at users "that's not the way LW does it", interested users might write their own plug-in to add that feature. It looks we could move from a lose-lose situation to a win-win one.
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #188068

  • jwrl
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Sylvain Leroux wrote:
what if we had a proper scripting language to automate tasks, or "emulate" features found in other NLE.

While it isn't a scripting language by any stretch of the imagination, Lightworks' macros can be used for that purpose to a fair degree. For example, I have a macro that deletes the frame on which I've parked mapped to X (shift-x). Because I like the classic Avid "replace clip" command, I have a macro that does that assigned to Alt-b. I can extend an edit to the left of the cursor up to the park position by typing Alt-Left arrow, and to the right using Alt-Right arrow. And so on.

The problem is of course that very few of the macros that I've written get used. It's just added complexity that I usually prefer not to think about.

Re: An annoying issue: Why doesn't lightworks have the razorblade tool!!! 1 month ago #188074

While it isn't a scripting language by any stretch of the imagination, Lightworks' macros can be used for that purpose to a fair degree.

Yes, of course, you can use macros to trigger a sequence of actions by using only one keystroke. I do that myself for repetitive tasks. But AFAIK, the current macro system lacks conditional statements and loops and by definition macros are stateless. Of course, the LW dev could probably extend the macro language to support control structures and variables. But all that is already handled by a typical embedded language engine.

In a recent thread we talked about removing effects in a range, what if we could write something like that:

-- pseudo-code
function dropAllEffects()
  for segment in range.segments() do
    for effect in segment.effects() do
      effect.drop()
    end
  end
end
LightWorks 14.1 on Linux Debian 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (2018-01-04) x86_64 GNU/Linux
GeForce GT 445M with Nvidia drivers 340.24
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU Q 840 @ 1.87GHz (4 cores + hyper-theading)
Medias on an NFS share (slowww!)
Last Edit: 1 month ago by Sylvain Leroux.
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