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TOPIC: What can the Jog command be used for?

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182020

  • jwrl
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hugly wrote:
I didn't purchase X-keys 68 because I don't like the rectangular shape, it's too large for the free space on my desktop and I don't need so many keys on top level. To much in all dimensions for me.

The X-keys XK-12 is still rectangular, but it's cheaper than the XK-68. It has 12 keys and can be provided either with a jog wheel or a joystick, if that's more convenient. Since it uses the same logic as the XK-68 it should have the same jog performance.
Last Edit: 2 years ago by jwrl.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182021

  • hugly
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I really don't need those X-Keys boxes.

I know that you have a Console Mark I. I remember a very long discussion, not long ago, about a future Console Mark III. After working with the Contour device just for a few day, I see that it will be hard to beat the Shuttle Pro 2 in terms of ergonomics and usability. In my view, it's been best choice to put a Lightworks logo on it and sell it on the shop page.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 years ago by hugly.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182022

  • hugly
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jwrl,

Even as a Console user, give this device a try. It's worth it.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182023

  • gr00by
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hugly wrote:
gr00by,
Edit: I'm asking this because it appears to me as if the jog-wheel on the Shuttle buffers by itself (on hardware, not on OS level), different from all other controls on the Shuttle.


I'm not sure about buffering issue on hardware side:



EDIT: In practice (while editing) the delay after releasing a controller is about 1sec. Some keystrokes are already sent to OS, stored in the buffer and sent to Lightworks. I can add more throtting and emit less events per sec, but the max speed of playback will be slower.
Canon C100 -- Manjaro Linux User
Last Edit: 2 years ago by gr00by.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182024

  • hugly
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Thank you very much!

That looks quite different from what I saw here.

In the meantime I've detected that buffering on the Contour side was caused by my settings here. I had "Once only" and "Smart release" selected which is wrong and limits obviously upper frequency of events and buffers them in the shuttle. Setting frequency to "As fast as possible" and disabling "Smart release", sends the events in realtime (as fast as I can rotate) with no delay and buffering (overshoot), but overshooting and late response is still there in Lightworks.

That means, as it stands now, Lightworks can optimize Nudge and Jog commands for more reactive operations on Contour jog-wheel without contacting Contour, just by adding (to the already existing) a second set of Nudge and Jog commands optimized for Contour jog-wheel to improve. Good news.

Thanks again.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 years ago by hugly.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182025

  • gr00by
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The driver *MUST* do some throttling. Too much events per sec will cause an overbuffering. At the beginning I implemented direct event to keystroke mappings (1:1) and it was wrong in terms of usability/user experience.

Now I have an idea about transforming "fast jog" events into less keystrokes but based of a rotation speed, and by using "JOG" console action. After releasing the controller, the driver could send just one stop keystroke, so the action should be immediate and without a lag. In theory In the other words -the concept is about significant reduction of keystroke events sent to Lightworks.
Canon C100 -- Manjaro Linux User

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182026

  • briandrys
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The lag appears to be less on the 32bit V12.6 that I've also got installed.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182027

  • hugly
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gr00by wrote:
The driver *MUST* do some throttling.

Yes of course, buffering is necessary. There might be even more than one buffer in the chain.

What I see here on Windows, with alpha characters assigned to jog wheel and Notepad++ as target is that

1. There is NO buffering on OS level when I rotate the jog-wheel as fast as I can as soon as I release the jog wheel no additional character is inserted.

2. When setting key repeat rate to fasted available in Windows 7 (appr. 30 Hz) and pressing nudge-left or right (left-right arrow) in Lightworks, there is keyboard delay as expected, but as soon as repeat starts there is NO buffering (overshoot).

3. When assigning nudge commands to jog wheel with exactly the same settings and turn the wheel quickly I see extreme overshoot, even with nudge commands..

What does that mean, is the jog-wheel too fast or Lightworks too slow (again with 1 MBps superfast proxies on SSD)?
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 years ago by hugly.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182028

  • hugly
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briandrys wrote:
The lag appears to be less on the 32bit V12.6 that I've also got installed.

Do you have a Contour Shuttle?

Edit: I asked because I wasn't aware of it, but from all what you say, it's most likely that you have one - sorry for asking.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 years ago by hugly.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182029

  • gr00by
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Lightworks problably is getting a stream of characters (keystrokes) and it is processing them one by one, in a sequence. The speed of processing one hit may vary.
Canon C100 -- Manjaro Linux User

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182030

  • hugly
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gr00by,

Is what I describe with alpha characters from jog-wheel into an editor vs nudge commands into Lightworks from keyboard compared with nudge commands from shuttle-wheel reproducible on your system?

(in Lightworks: no overshoot from keyboard at 30 Hz, extreme overshoot from jog-wheel).
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 years ago by hugly.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182040

If you are using jog to crank up to more than 1/2x play speed, you are misusing it. If you jog at speed and slow to a stop instead of just stopping, there is no overshoot. It is a low frame rate tool for fine trimming. I use the shuttle ring for moving more than a couple of seconds worth of frames.
I find the shuttle under win 10 in 14.5 to be accurate enough to sync sound visually with picture with maybe a one frame correction with nudge. I use the shuttle shift + play buttons function for nudge. The lag for initial jog motion is minimal and consistent. The shuttle response and keyboard response to jog left/right are the same except you don't have continuous variable speed control. It jogs at the key repeat rate.
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Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182042

  • hugly
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Yes, if I turn the wheel slowly enough there is no overshooting, but the question we are working on and investing in time in is, why is there overshooting at all.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182054

  • briandrys
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It's worth having because of the audio scrub, so that you find the frame you want with its audio and then rock and roll around the frame to check if it's the right point. Even with the current lag, as long as you keep the jog inputs slow it's effective at the job

You may wish to ask for an improvement in the lag characteristics with the Shuttle Pro's jog wheel and the jog keys in the V14.5 beta forum, since this is where the thread seems to be heading.

Re: What can the Jog command be used for? 2 years ago #182065

  • hugly
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I will place a feature request as soon as we collected enough evidence that the issues are caused by Lightwoks commands (and not some third party modules) and thus improvable by Lightworks, but I think it's too late for V14.5 and I don't know if there's any focus on the Contour Shuttle, from a business point of view.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
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