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TOPIC: Lightworks to VMix recording interface

Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224133

Discovered that Lightworks can play out to and record from VMix streaming production software today.
Haven't had time to set it up and play with it yet, but the fact that it can interface to external software is interesting. Apparently supports up to 16 discrete audio tracks.
Would like to see a similar interface to Mixbus with chase lock via MIDI time code. a feature Mixbus already has.
Razz

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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224146

  • RWAV
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LW has always been able to output and record actual audio - but that has required actual audio I/O on both sides - the playout tool is still there and it can be configured to I/O with as many audio hardware tracks as one has - the playout tool also reads a T/C pre-striped destination and drops it into record on matching code.

LW VIP used to support read/write automation for the Yamaha O3D and O2R - still have a couple of O3Ds boxed-up under the bed. Have a suspicion not all of that functionality has completely vanished. There is a user here who uses an O2R as a link between LW and a number of audio suites - mostly ProTools - out of LW and with a bit of magic into the mixing suite for quick turn around screening mixes in sync with LW pictures- and I think they also use the mixer to shift sound between LW and Avid.

From memory the Yamaha mixers use Midi code - the Philip Rees bidirectional LTC/Midi converter was the key to matching.
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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224147

  • RWAV
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In the attached a 16 A track edit is being played out to device 'Mixer'

The LW I/O card has 4 A tracks - one would have to make 4 playout passes.

Say there was a mark/park on the LW playout tool and the Device is under RS422 control. LW will spool it back to a customised pre-roll position - play the edit and frame accurately drop into record on the fist frame of the mark/park - so if a ProTools session is the destination device one would arm a new set of A Tracks for each LW pass.

Most probably one could make it work for Mixbus??

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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224198

Vmix is a live streaming and recording production switcher app on my PC. First indication I’ve seen of an app to app software recording interface in Lightworks. Haven’t tried it yet. Audio is supported, but control is not.
Found it while messing around with the setup for the BM Intensity Shuttle Decklink hardware.
Seems like the only thing lacking to chase lock Mixbus without external hardware is support for a soft patch utility like Jackaudio for both audio and MIDI I/O connections and MIDI timecode support.
I’d rather see Editshare implement that than try to build sophisticated DAW capabilities into Lightworks.
Should be a comparatively simple thing to do. Then people could use their DAW of choice either standalone or chase locked with Lightworks either on the same workstation or with network linked dedicated workstations for each.
Did not like Resolve becoming even more complex and bloated incorporating both Fusion and a third party DAW into the program. The manual is well over 3000 pages now plus it takes fairly serious hardware to run it efficiently.
Razz

Digital Bolex 2k Cinema DNG raw camera
Canon GL2 DV camcorder
iPAD Mini 3 Iographer rig

Workstation: Intel i7-4770k, Asrock Z87 Thunderbolt 2 MB, 16GB 1866 DDR3 ram,
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Shuttlepro2 Win10 64bit LW 14.0 64 bit
Last Edit: 5 months ago by David Rasberry.

Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224224

  • RWAV
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Sure, the reminiscences wee in part to show that LW does have uni-directional T/C based RS422 control in a current tool - the long gone VIP was capable of bi-directional RS422 - and after all doesn't everyone love a real hardware mixer.

Whatever exists, like the Vmix, but remains an imperfect fit for one's needs the task is to interface between LW audio and the software only Mixbus application.

Obviously there is whole track export/import or the arcane play/record option via a hardware mixer - however the limitation of those is they are whole A track based not clips-on-track based and they have no reference to the edit V structure - they don't import an edit timeline (a single edit length track with silence between signal is as useless as --- no matter how it's made)

LW does present at least 2 options which have all of that. OMF and AAF export.

The attached explain it all - if one stares at them for long enough.

A short edit - exported as both OMF and AAF and then imported into a different LW project.

In each case the clip labels are shown for A3.

Both OMF and AAF importantly consolidate the original audio file (sighhh Christmas --- what would one like for Christmas --- consolidate on the LW timeline --- feel embarrassed to ask again and again)- a digression - both OMF and AAF retain the V composition cut points and AAF has a robust add-handles option.

All one needs after that is an application able to import one of the two. Seems very odd if Mixbus ignores both.

(Apologies - had to fix one of the screen grabs - the Clip Labels panel was missing on the LW sequence image)


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Last Edit: 5 months ago by RWAV.

Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224248

What I have in mind is leaving picture in Lightworks and building soundtracks entirely in Mixbus in chase lock mode. Same way we used to do it in online mixdown suites.
The only tracks that would be in Lightworks would be camera original tracks for reference.
Mixbus can chase lock to either MIDI or LTC timecode.
The way I do it now is to export video rough cuts with the separate sound track option enabled to get PCM tracks and import video and audio into Mixbus. Mixbus runs the reference video track for the audio edit with the video timecode as reference.
The main advantage to chase lock would be the ability to control transport functions simultaneously with the shuttle pro in both programs, eliminating the need for round tripping via database protocols or audio exports. My video camera outputs discrete video and audio files with timecode, so it is effectively double system anyway. Other than cutting lip sync dialog tracks there is no need to ever import audio mix elements into Lightworks. With Mixbus subframe edits, dialog replacement, and automatic phase optimization between tracks are not a problem.

Haven't explored the Vmix interface yet, but interactive control of that program isn't an essential feature. I use that program for recording and/or live streaming video and audio of events. It does have MIDI control interface for running tally lights and VCA faders on control surfaces, but no timecode support. It also supports Xkeys and Shuttlepro controllers.
The use case here would be taking a discrete premix feed of live audio sources via USB or networked audio protocols into Mixbus for discrete broadcast mix or recording for post.
The setup would be similar to traditional hardware based crewed event production. Live digital console running house sound with Vmix on one workstation as the video switching live streaming component, Mixbus and Lightworks on another networked workstation for event recording and backup to Vmix. Vmix itself can output up to 8 discrete audio mixes via ASIO to hardware or software ASIO devices.
Vmix runs video via networked NDI video sources or hardware interfaces.

The objective is to move into an IP networked production environment where software and hardware interfaces are transparent to each other.
The missing key for Lightworks is support for MIDI timecode and a simple software routing protocol for audio and MIDI like JACK.
Razz

Digital Bolex 2k Cinema DNG raw camera
Canon GL2 DV camcorder
iPAD Mini 3 Iographer rig

Workstation: Intel i7-4770k, Asrock Z87 Thunderbolt 2 MB, 16GB 1866 DDR3 ram,
2TB Seagate Hybrid system drive, 2TB Seagate NAS media drive, E-sata III hot swap drive bay, Nvidia GTX760 2GB GPU
Lightworks kybrd. Shuttlepro v2
Win10 Pro 64bit, Lightworks 14.0 64bit

Mobile Workstation: MSI GTX72 Dominator
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Shuttlepro2 Win10 64bit LW 14.0 64 bit
Last Edit: 5 months ago by David Rasberry.

Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224278

  • RWAV
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What I have in mind is leaving picture in Lightworks and building soundtracks entirely in Mixbus in chase lock mode. Same way we used to do it in online mixdown suites.
Make sure your LW is outputting T/C - either via an RS422 Serial card or extracted from SDI output. Configure an I/O device in LW to access that T/C source. Distribute that T/C to the Mixbus. It may be necessary to play the edit in the LW Playout tool - or not - have to think about that.
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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 5 months ago #224296

RWAV wrote:
What I have in mind is leaving picture in Lightworks and building soundtracks entirely in Mixbus in chase lock mode. Same way we used to do it in online mixdown suites.
Make sure your LW is outputting T/C - either via an RS422 Serial card or extracted from SDI output. Configure an I/O device in LW to access that T/C source. Distribute that T/C to the Mixbus. It may be necessary to play the edit in the LW Playout tool - or not - have to think about that.


I'm more interested in eliminating the need for external hardware other than Ethernet to accomplish communication between post software apps. Audio and MIDI already operate in this environment. So does digital video routing. Production facilities aren't even buying SDI routers anymore. The cable infrastructure and switching is all Cat6A/7 Ethernet.
In the case of Mixbus and Lightworks they already share the same media via network linked storage at my house. Mixbus like most other DAW's is Jack enabled.
All that is required is to implement the free open source Jack API within Lightworks.
Razz

Digital Bolex 2k Cinema DNG raw camera
Canon GL2 DV camcorder
iPAD Mini 3 Iographer rig

Workstation: Intel i7-4770k, Asrock Z87 Thunderbolt 2 MB, 16GB 1866 DDR3 ram,
2TB Seagate Hybrid system drive, 2TB Seagate NAS media drive, E-sata III hot swap drive bay, Nvidia GTX760 2GB GPU
Lightworks kybrd. Shuttlepro v2
Win10 Pro 64bit, Lightworks 14.0 64bit

Mobile Workstation: MSI GTX72 Dominator
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Shuttlepro2 Win10 64bit LW 14.0 64 bit

Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 4 months, 3 weeks ago #224411

  • RWAV
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The transition to single connector multiple signal based routers is pretty well ubiquitous by now with format depending on facility needs. SDI is far from relegated to obscurity take for example the BMD Smart Videohub for small to medium sized facilities in resolutions up to 4K and the range of I/O cards from BMD and other manufacturers with SDI capability up to 8K.

That may well be a perfect fit for the scale of operation envisaged. There are of course more complicated alternatives to SDI starting from HDMI to Fibre Channel and a range ethernet interface solutions in copper or fibre configurations.

Since this conversation started as a pointer to VMix - had a very quick look - seem to be an Australia based company - the few tutorials looked at are in Australian voices. The website layout and and pricing model seems similar in layout design to another Australian high tech company with a founding owner who I think enjoys surfing. VMix offices seem to be on the Gold Coast - surfie heartland - and if they do have backing from the people alluded to - the sky's the their limit.

Anyway - VMix is interesting perhaps it seems to have some functionality in LW because maybe they both access the same I/O card simultaneously.
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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 4 months, 3 weeks ago #224460

  • David Rasberry
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It was interesting to discover the Vmix software I/O support in Lightworks. As I understand it whether one is sharing digital media between software apps or external hardware, the basics of linking software port ID's out of or into Lightworks should be the same.
In my case for linking file based media I/O between software apps on the same computer or between computers on the same network, external hardware should not be necessary.
Razz

Digital Bolex 2k Cinema DNG raw camera
Canon GL2 DV camcorder
iPAD Mini 3 Iographer rig

Workstation: Intel i7-4770k, Asrock Z87 Thunderbolt 2 MB, 16GB 1866 DDR3 ram,
2TB Seagate Hybrid system drive, 2TB Seagate NAS media drive, E-sata III hot swap drive bay, Nvidia GTX760 2GB GPU
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Mobile Workstation: MSI GTX72 Dominator
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16GB DDR4 ram, 500GB M.2 SSD
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Shuttlepro2 Win10 64bit LW 14.0 64 bit

Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 4 months, 3 weeks ago #224472

  • RWAV
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Agree with what you say however would be interesting to remove your I/O card to see if the link to/from LW still functions.

Vmix is a high end product with software prices up to $1200 USD

Their entry level 'reference system' hardware configuration uses a choice between two 8xSDI I/O cards

www.vmix.com/products/vmix-reference-systems.aspx

The other I/O interface mentioned in documentation is NDI.

"NDI® is a technology that makes it easy to send and receive multiple channels of broadcast quality, low latency video over an existing Gigabit Ethernet Network".
Perhaps LW can access the NDI I/O. Back to where this began - LW VIP had an 'Edit-to-it' function where a live input signal was routed to a specialised viewer and became just another source used for editing.

If the proposition is that LW is accessing existing media files via NDI then one is not at all sure how LW knows to where find a specific file on what may well be an extensive HDD storage resources.
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Re: Lightworks to VMix recording interface 4 months, 3 weeks ago #224474

  • David Rasberry
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Vmix accepts file based sources just like Lightworks. Anything that can transmit over a network or internally from other apps can serve as a source, no hardware I/O required.
I've designed Zoom conference systems using Vmix with NDI cameras and with SDI cameras with SDI to NDI network converters. We can even control PTZ on the cameras from Vmix.
I may try to see if I can link Lightworks to Mixbus through Vmix just for grins. Can possibly use an audio track for LTC and get chase lock that way.
At least good for proof of concept, but my little laptop will struggle to run three complex high powered programs at once.
Razz

Digital Bolex 2k Cinema DNG raw camera
Canon GL2 DV camcorder
iPAD Mini 3 Iographer rig

Workstation: Intel i7-4770k, Asrock Z87 Thunderbolt 2 MB, 16GB 1866 DDR3 ram,
2TB Seagate Hybrid system drive, 2TB Seagate NAS media drive, E-sata III hot swap drive bay, Nvidia GTX760 2GB GPU
Lightworks kybrd. Shuttlepro v2
Win10 Pro 64bit, Lightworks 14.0 64bit

Mobile Workstation: MSI GTX72 Dominator
Intel i7-6700HQ 2.7GHz Win10 64bit
16GB DDR4 ram, 500GB M.2 SSD
Nvidia GTX970 3GB GPU
USB3, USB3.1-C, Thunderbolt 3 ports
Shuttlepro2 Win10 64bit LW 14.0 64 bit
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