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TOPIC: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 2 weeks ago #222642

  • geomcd1949
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If LWKS is open-sourced, would it be free? And if yes, why would Editshare do that?
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Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 2 weeks ago #222646

  • hugly
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Howdy,

I cannot say why Editshare should do it, but in general, there are many reasons:

opensource.com/life/15/12/why-open-source

opensource.google/docs/why/
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Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 2 weeks ago #222647

  • briandrys
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A point to remember is that open source doesn't always mean free.

www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.en.html

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 1 week, 6 days ago #222651

  • kalimerox
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I like the way Harrison Mixbus is running their very successful DAW Mixbus32C:

It is based on Ardour, a open source project with a great supporting community. The main Devs (1 or 2 people in their case) get donations through their website (average 8000$ monthly as seen on the ardour forum) and have a very active community behind.

Mixbus runs on top of ardour their closed source software enhancements, with all the proprietary plugins, summing, etc etc. They work together hand in hand.

There was a recent interview with Paul Davis I found extremely interesting mentioning the main reasons why some of the collaboration with tech companies failed in the past (discourse.ardour.org/t/paul-davis-interview-with-lgw/104197)


What makes this example so outstanding to me, is that the DAW and sound software scene is a very small niche compared to NLE and photo editors (it is just less people using it..) , and still it can be commercially successfull as open source.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 1 week, 5 days ago #222698

  • motosega
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Ardour/mixbus is fantastic, but it's easy to gloss over the fact that it took them over a decade to get to that point, and they have the one and only Paul Davis, The guy that wrote the linux audio subsystem for low latency audio (jack)

by having mixbus/ardour, Harrison have Paul Davis working for them, and they also develop seriously expensive realtime digital hardware, so having him onboard has multiple advantages. harrisonconsoles.com/site/mpc5.html

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 1 week, 5 days ago #222702

  • David Rasberry
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I love Mixbus. To my ear it actually does sound better than other DAW's I have tried. I like the analog console style GUI, especially the metering, which accurately simulates the ballistics of each meter type it displays. The impulse response meters on the channel strips match with Lighworks perfectly.
Still trying to find a way to link it into Lightworks via Jack.
Rather do that than see Lightworks get overburdened with the "do it all with one app" approach that Resolve has taken.
Lightworks is at its best as the lean "man in the middle". But it does need a better audio implementation.
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Last Edit: 1 week, 5 days ago by David Rasberry.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 1 week, 5 days ago #222703

  • kalimerox
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@motosega i fully agree, ardour came a long way. I only brought up the example as one possible blueprint of how to run a commercial business and be partly open source at the same time. Also in the talk i posted Paul Davis talks about his experiences with other collaborations like SSL and so on and how difficult it can be to understand the open source world from a business point of view and vice versa. most companies he said (I m paraphrasing) didn´t get it at all and the projects therefore failed or they lost interest..

@David Raspberry it is the same for me: whenever I mix on mixbus it does feel great and sounds better than other daws, be it the summing algorithms they have, the for me ideal workflow, or whatever it is, i love it. Doing all my mastering and film sound work on Mixbus and ardour for the last 10 years and never regretting it.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 4 days, 19 hours ago #223230

  • hugly
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Back on this.

If I understand the content of the OP's contribution here correctly, there must be a large community of qualified people just waiting for Lightworks to go open source so they can start accelerating the progress?

Why not starting with a few well structured video tutorials and user guides about the current functionality to overcome the short comings of the existing?

www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=26&id=223205&Itemid=81#223205

This approach would be highly beneficial for the participant. They could get familiar with the user's point of view and the sophisticated workflows, which, I believe, is mandatory for programmers to create good software.

If there's someone who takes the lead, I'm willing to support.
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Last Edit: 4 days, 19 hours ago by hugly.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 4 days, 12 hours ago #223248

  • Diemati
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I think Editshare and Lightworks' users can benefit from open-sourcing Lightworks. I don't know the technical difficulties and don't know anything about Editshare internal functioning, but I see a figure similar to the relationship between RedHat and Fedora, in which Fedora is the playground for testing and incorporating new technology that eventually will be used in the very stable and supported and paid RedHat Linux distribution. Editshare can have a community version which can replace the free version including only free codecs. They and the community can add and test new features; therefore, this version would somewhat unstable. They can incorporate the tested features to a professional and very stable and paid version. The problem that I see to do this is that they need to create an infrastructure. At the pace cameras and NLE are developing, I see that Lightworks is getting behind. Please don't misunderstand me, Lightworks is my favourite NLE, that is why I am writing this.
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Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 4 days, 12 hours ago #223249

  • hugly
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I'm not sure if Editshare is comparable with a company like RedHat with an annual revenue of over 3 Billion dollars and I seriously doubt that a NLE is comparable with a mainstream operating system.

However, all this is theory, my approach is more practical. Let's find the community who is willing to invest a lot of time and work for free first, and ask for open source afterwards. If we can find somewhere on this planet one or more skilled developers who are willing to make some video tutorials about the product and its workflows, voila, that's a fist step.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 4 days, 12 hours ago by hugly.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 4 days, 7 hours ago #223255

  • schrauber
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Diemati wrote:
Editshare can have a community version which can replace the free version including only free codecs. They and the community can add and test new features.

Here is an example where cooperation in code development already works:

The code of Pixel Shader Lightworks effects can be read as normal text.
Our user effects are also based on this technique.

Diemati wrote:
.. test new features; therefore, this version would somewhat unstable..
However, most of the effects in this thread are very well tested, and some of these effects even fix problems that occur with the pre-installed Lightworks effects.

As a playground for testing there are several forum threads available. Additionally, I have listed some of my prototypes on GitHub.

Diemati wrote:
.. They can incorporate the tested features to a professional and very stable and paid version..

For example, during the beta phase we realized this together with the Lightworks developers with the new Blur effect, which is now included in Lightworks 2020.1 - (the old Blur effect was renamed).
Link to the thread in the beta forum (currently still readable for the beta test members).
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Last Edit: 4 days, 7 hours ago by schrauber.

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 4 days, 4 hours ago #223258

  • David Rasberry
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Where Lightworks has a hard time keeping up is precisely with implementing paid license codec SDK's for emerging formats and standards.
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Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 3 days, 7 hours ago #223322

  • SepiaStudios
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^^Ardour is cool, thanks for those who shared that!

Want to take a second to appreciate how this thread title makes every reply feel like a response to huge email chain with Matt Stanford.

Diemati wrote:
I think Editshare and Lightworks' users can benefit from open-sourcing Lightworks. ... Editshare can have a community version [and] can incorporate the tested features to a professional and very stable and paid version. The problem that I see to do this is that they need to create an infrastructure.

In addition to Matt's response, I also heard back from Parkergale Capital (EditShare's majority stakeholder). They cited this exact concern as their barrier -- building the infrastructure for open source development.


Diemati wrote:
At the pace cameras and NLE are developing, I see that Lightworks is getting behind. Please don't misunderstand me, Lightworks is my favourite NLE, that is why I am writing this.

Willing to bet most people here feel this way. That's part of why I pushed for some clarity on the open source question. If it's going to continue to be actively developed, closed source (like in the beta period), great -- but if it's not, at least if were open source it would live on in some new way.


schrauber wrote:

Diemati wrote:
.. They can incorporate the tested features to a professional and very stable and paid version..

For example, during the beta phase we realized this together with the Lightworks developers with the new Blur effect, which is now included in Lightworks 2020.1 - (the old Blur effect was renamed).
Link to the thread in the beta forum (currently still readable for the beta test members).

First of all -- thank you to all involved in that, I just used the Blur effect and it was great! Didn't realize it was a new, collaborative feature.

Secondly, this is why I brought up the beta program on my post in this thread, because it's already such an involved program (including users contributing effects). In contrast with Avid or Adobe, Lightworks is already being developed in a much more collaborative and community-driven way.

(Disclaimer I'm not involved on forums for either of those companies, maybe there's more reciprocity than I'm imagining)


hugly wrote:

If I understand the content of the OP's contribution here correctly, there must be a large community of qualified people just waiting for Lightworks to go open source so they can start accelerating the progress?

To build off the infrastructure point, think it's a bit of a "if you build it, they will come" situation.

I cross-posted Matt's reply on reddit and one user replied saying that they'd "moved away from LWKS but always wanted to see it open source cause it seems like a great project to work on myself."


hugly wrote:

Why not starting with a few well structured video tutorials and user guides about the current functionality to overcome the short comings of the existing?

www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=26&id=223205&Itemid=81#223205

Sooo I've been thinking about this a lot, and maybe it's up for me to just do it, but what I'd really love to see are recordings of first time users' experience with Lightworks.

Maybe EditShare's already done this! But after watching YouTuber Tantacrul do it in a design-deep-dive, where he had a couple dozen musicians record their screen and voice going through installation and completing basic notation in Darico, I'd just be so curious to see how filmmakers and editors interact with Lightworks and clear up some of the debates about usability that crop on the forum. It's really revealing.
Last Edit: 3 days, 7 hours ago by SepiaStudios. Reason: Formatting fixes

Re: Replying to Matt Sandford about LightWorks 3 days ago #223324

  • hugly
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I might be corrected on this, but all publicly noticeable activities, the long turn around times for new releases, new features and bug fixes, the manuals, the video tutorials, and the frequency and quality of marketing publications suggest that the product has been operated on too low budget, for quite a while. This would explain in a natural way the accelerating shortcomings compared with direct competition.

The question is, why does a company run a product on too low budget for a longer period? The most obvious answer: The product doesn't generate sufficient revenue to spend more money for marketing, maintenance and development and, the estimated growth is limited.

Based on these assumptions, I seriously doubt that a product of that kind can be led on the path to open source with a result different from a dead product.

Personally, I prefer to pay the yearly fees to keep it alive as long as possible, hoping that many others do the same.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 days, 19 hours ago by hugly. Reason: Typos
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