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TOPIC: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions...

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197277

  • VBR
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hugly wrote:
Could you tell how you will compress to ProRes422 as you capture. I'm not aware of many recording devices (recording software respectively) which can do that (on Windows).

Edit: None of the devices I'm aware of fits in my picture of low budget, but I'm surely not a video capturing specialist.


I admit I'm merely assuming it's possible. I want to use the Magewell; is there any free software that can compress an incoming uncompressed feed to a high-quality video format suitable for editing? Maybe the Magewell can compress at it captures as well; I need to do more research...

I know I'd rather not use an Elgato, or similar device, & end up capturing in H.264 - editing in H.264 - exporting the final project in H.264 - & then uploading to YouTube & have it compress it all over again. The way I understand that is it's like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy etc.

I just want to get the best possible quality at every point in the chain within the confines of my limited equipment & budget.
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197278

  • hugly
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VBR wrote:
I have this crazy ass idea about multicam editing with anywhere between 20 to 30 video tracks in ProRes 422 (720p/30 to 1080p/30) on this setup; am I being "optimistic", is this possible, or is there another way?

VBR wrote:
Ideally, I'd like to switch between syncronised concurrent videos via a pre-scripted automation track, & not by clicking on them with my mouse in real-time. It would offer much more precision & be my preferred method. Is this possible in Lightworks?


I wonder where you have those 30 synchronized sources from?

Are you in charge of preliminary tests for Matrix 4?
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197279

  • VBR
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hugly wrote:
I wonder where you have those 30 synchronized sources from?


I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you!


hugly wrote:
Are you in charge of preliminary tests for Matrix 4?



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In all seriousness, I don't want to reveal too much at this time as regards the content of what I will be doing. Suffice to say, it's a crazy dream I've had for about 9 years. I signed up here in 2011, but realised my PC wasn't up to the job back then. Since being given some PC parts, & having some spare cash, I've decided to pursue it & see what happens. Watch this space...


Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197280

  • hugly
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What if you told me, you are in charge of preliminary tests for next Matrix?

Then, you should abandon the idea of a budget PC instantaneously and check with the rendering farm of your choice for reservation of some months of rendering time and afterwards your financial consultant to find some investors.

Frankly, Lightworks is a NLE which doesn't need much computer resources to work with, compared with others and, the first steps into video editing are pretty easy to learn. The internal proxies help adapting load induced by media to available computer resources and that's quite comfortable, with and without multicam applications.

Instead of testing the limits of Lightworks in theory with hypothetical setups, I'd suggest investing some further thoughts in the capturing process, devices and software.

This guy runs watercooled hardware. Nevertheless, he shows a good capture card at a reasonable price (there are many others):

It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197281

  • VBR
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hugly wrote:
Instead of testing the limits of Lightworks in theory with hypothetical setups, I'd suggest investing some further thoughts in the capturing process, devices and software.


I've been doing nothing but for the last few weeks, & it's all led me to the Magewell USB Capture HDMI Gen 2 device. It's also fully compatible with OBS as I've just discovered.


hugly wrote:
Could you tell how you will compress to ProRes422 as you capture. I'm not aware of many recording devices (recording software respectively) which can do that (on Windows)...None of the devices I'm aware of fits in my picture of low budget, but I'm surely not a video capturing specialist.


This is a strange question to ask as OBS is free & can capture in ProRes 422 according to your post here:

www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=27&id=123527&Itemid=81
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197282

  • hugly
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When reading more than just the headline, you'll see that I wrote this:

After some tests I can't recommend to use ProRes recording because of dropped frames, lack of appropriate settings, and very high CPU usage, at least with the version I used, OBS Studio V0.15.4. For further details see below.

I performed those tests on an i7 2600. Recently, I've tested ProRes capture on my new 1920x to see if this changes anything - it's still unusable for HD recordings.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197285

  • hugly
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VBR wrote:
it's all led me to the Magewell USB Capture HDMI Gen 2 device. It's also fully compatible with OBS as I've just discovered.

Personally, with a desktop PC, I wouldn't use a capture device attached via USB. That's mainly because of personal preferences, I have enough hardware spread in the room around my computer, but also price, performance/stability and thermal issues.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197291

  • schrauber
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VBR wrote:
... If I understand correctly it's just as I suspected, it's the transfer rate of the drive that matters more than the CPU ...

In this setup with 30 multicam clips and the proxies used. In my normal projects, the CPU or GPU limits the processing speed in the timeline.

VBR wrote:
... Spreading the load over multiple drives would give more bandwidth, hence better performance..

In Lightworks, I can distribute the proxies independently of the original clips to multiple drives. I have tested it:
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In my example, the proxies had the dimensions 240 x 426 pixels (is adjustable). Lightworks uses these tiny media for more efficient editing. The original media are automatically used for export.

VBR wrote:
... I'm pleasantly surprised that your i5 is only using 18% while doing Multicam with 30 videos, even though their proxies.

The peak load was slightly higher, but the displayed CPU load is not very meaningful for playback and timeline editing. As you can see in the screenshot with the proxies on 3 drives, the CPU load has hardly changed (ignore the 8%, that is only a short moment). Here again the comparison with the first test with only one proxy drive.The synchronization was somewhat faster with 3 proxy drives, but the drives did not seem to be fully utilized. Probably also internal data transfer rates affect the performance (RAM, motherboard etc.). At 100% load comes my CPU only when exporting or proxy creation.

Note that the lowest system load and drive data rates occurred during playback in my test because I set the multicam clip to play only a single media.
Only after stopping the playback head did Lightworks sync all 30 clips in the bin. The disadvantage is that during playback I can't see what's happening in the other clips at the synchronized time.
Real-time synchronization during playback worked in my test with 10 Multicam clips, not 15 or more.
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Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by schrauber.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 2 days ago #197296

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VBR wrote:
So, I take it is possible to do non-real-time Multicam? Ideally, I'd like to switch between syncronised concurrent videos via a pre-scripted automation track, & not by clicking on them with my mouse in real-time. It would offer much more precision & be my preferred method. Is this possible in Lightworks?

Yes, you can also later in the finished timeline select other clips from the MulticamBbin, which replaces Lightworks automatically synchonized.
You can add new clips to the Multicam Bins at a later time, leaving other clips available for post-editing.

You can also pre-sort a clip in different bins to create several Multicam Bins.
You can also create multiple Sequences (separate timelines) of synced material, and combine those Sequences into a master Sequence.

You can add "Cue" markers to the timelines to mark specific frames or areas in your clips. I also use this "Cue" to mark the beat in music-audio timelines to frame-synchronize the music with events in video clips.

There are also relatively sync options that can be easily enabled and disabled with a shortcut (without the Multicam Bin).

And probably much more ...
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Windows 10, 64 Bit
Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600
Last Edit: 2 weeks, 2 days ago by schrauber.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 2 weeks, 1 day ago #197341

  • VBR
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@Hugly DOH! I didn't notice that. Such a shame.

I might hold off on my purchase of a capture device for now, as well as a GPU & RAID set up. Might just have a play with Lightworks on what I've got. I won't be using any effects or transitions anyway. I was concerned with the Magewell overheating too, I know of some who had this issue. Maybe I will look again at internal cards...

@schrauber Thanks for all the detailed information, very helpful stuff.


Last Edit: 2 weeks, 1 day ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 1 week, 3 days ago #197564

  • VBR
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If I turned off the "live" option for Mutlicam editing, wouldn't that solve all of the bandwidth issues, because then I wouldn't have to stream all the videos simultaneously off of my hard drive?

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 1 week, 3 days ago #197565

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If you mean the option "Concurrent players", then yes.
But this only affects playback.
While scrolling through a source timeline in the Multicam bin, all contained clips are still synced. That's what you usually want, otherwise a normal Bin would have been enough. Edit: With 30 clips I expect the described time delay until all clips are in sync, which can be annoying.

More details:
There are two options that are related.
"Live-editing enabeld" and "Concurrent players"
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"Concurrent players" effects real-time synchronization during playback.
Edit: I mean the playback started in the source. There is also another sync option with the recording sequence, which pauses the synchronization with the source tiles by default during the sequence playback.

"Live Editing enabeld" probably only causes that when clicking on the Multicam tiles during playback, the content is inserted into the Sequence timeline. Because this option works only with "Concurrent players" enabled, Live editing will be automatically disabled when "Concurrent players" is disabled.

Edit: Because "Concurrent players" is standard, Lightworks will automatically turn this option on for some other actions. But you can use keyboard shortcuts to quickly turn off the option.
If this goes unnoticed before Playback starts, the 30 clips may affect program stability.
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Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600
Last Edit: 1 week, 3 days ago by schrauber.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 1 week, 3 days ago #197568

  • hugly
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FWIW

Beside of the question what 30 synced sources are good for and the purely technical discussion so far, I'm asking myself how can a human being handle 30 synchronized sources to switch between while live editing? I guess most untrained people would have trouble with four. Consequently, considering an approach to develop special workflows to break things down to manageable pieces could be of some benefit?

As far as I can see this concert's been capture with 7 cameras and as far as I know (and can read) that isn't a live edit.

It's better to travel well than to arrive...
Last Edit: 1 week, 3 days ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 1 week, 3 days ago #197571

  • VBR
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schrauber wrote:
More details:
There are two options that are related.
"Live-editing enabeld" and "Concurrent players"
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I meant Live-Editing Enabled, & setting it to "No". If I'm not editing live, then logically there's no need for LW to stream 30 videos simultaneously.

@Hugly - I'm already used to switching between well in excess of 48 views with the source material I intend to use. In fact, 48 views is child's play, & 100 is just as easy. There is a reason why this is the case, but I'm not ready to reveal it. If & when I get around to doing this, & find a suitable video editor, I'll post a link to the video (then you'll understand).

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 1 week, 3 days ago #197573

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VBR wrote:
I meant Live-Editing Enabled, & setting it to "No".
This deactivates only the insert mode, but not the real-time synchronization.
As I already wrote, you should also deactivate "Concurrent players" in the case you described.
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