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TOPIC: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions...

Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197084

  • VBR
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Hi guys & gals,

I'm building a budget PC for video editing & gaming, & ain't got a scooby doo when it comes to former. So, I have some noob type questions; apologies for any ignorance in advance.


1) I already have an i5 4690k on an old Gigabyte GA Z77 HD3 mobo With 16gb of Kingston KVR13N9S8/4 RAM, which my budget system will be built upon. The recommended specs for Lightworks is an i7 3xxx, but will it still run on my i5?

2) I'm thinking of using a RAID 0 SSD set up for my scratch drive, as I have 2x SATA III & 4x SATA II connections on the mobo. What would be fastest/best; 2x SSDs on the SATA III, or 4x SSDs on the SATA II, or would they be about the same speed?

3) I have this crazy ass idea about multicam editing with anywhere between 20 to 30 video tracks in ProRes 422 (720p/30 to 1080p/30) on this setup; am I being "optimistic", is this possible, or is there another way?

4) Will lightworks run on a gaming graphics card instead like an NVIDIA GTX 770 or GTX 980?


Any & all help will be very much appreciated.


Kind Regards,

VBR.



PS: I've been reading up a bit over the last few days trying to educate myself, but am not sure I'm understanding everything correctly...
Last Edit: 4 months, 2 weeks ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197085

  • hugly
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Hello,


Do I understand correctly, you are setting up a well performing budget PC and your benchmark is the performance of the free version of Lightworks?
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Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197087

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hugly wrote:
Do I understand correctly, you are setting up a well performing budget PC and your benchmark is the performance of the free version of Lightworks?



For question 1, yes. I saw there are recommended specs on here, but I didn't see any minimum specs. Mind you, I just found this thread which kind of answers my question.

www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=21&id=117355&Itemid=81

However, I would like to know if anyone is having success running it on an i5 4xxx.

If anyone has answers to my other questions, I'd like to know.


Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197089

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1) I already have an i5 4690k on an old Gigabyte GA Z77 HD3 mobo With 16gb of Kingston KVR13N9S8/4 RAM, which my budget system will be built upon. The recommended specs for Lightworks is an i7 3xxx, but will it still run on my i5?
no problem, fx are done on the gpu

2) I'm thinking of using a RAID 0 SSD set up for my scratch drive, as I have 2x SATA 6GB/s & 4x SATA 3GB/s connections on the mobo. What would be fastest/best; 2x SSDs on the 6GB/s, or 4x SSDs on the 3GB/s, or would they be about the same speed?
really depends on how the raid controller does the job, I'd bet 2x6b ssds are faster with an on board raid ctrl -> so 2 _large_ ssds 6gb will be faster than 4 small on 3gb. I still use std. hdds@3tb on 2x3GB/s, that's around >500+mb/sec.

3) I have this crazy ass idea about multicam editing with anywhere between 20 to 30 tracks in ProRes 422 720p/30 to 1080p/30 on this setup; am I being "optimistic", is this possible, or is there another way?
yes you are ,)
proxy files will help, but ehm 20-30 at once, never tested ...

4) Will lightworks run on a gaming graphics card instead like an NVIDIA GTX 770 or GTX 980?
both should do well ...

s

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197090

  • schrauber
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VBR wrote:
... The recommended specs for Lightworks is an i7 3xxx, but will it still run on my i5? ...
Lightworks 14.5 on Windows 10 runs on my 5 year old I5 processor. The processing speed and smooth playback also depends on the media used. I usually use the internal proxies that Lightworks creates and manages itself.

VBR wrote:
... 3) I have this crazy ass idea about multicam editing with anywhere between 20 to 30 tracks in ProRes 422 720p/30 to 1080p/30 on this setup; ...
By default, multicam editing works in Lightworks with only one video track in the sequence timeline to be edited. The source clips can be synchronized in a Multicam bin. But I think that you should split your 20 to 30 Multicam clips into small groups, and thus structure your work.
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Windows 10, 64 Bit
Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197094

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If, as a complete beginner, you're using the term "multicam" in a different way to us, some clarification may be in order. If you want to synchronise 20-30 shots into one group and cut between them on the fly, then good luck. That is going to tax even the most powerful computer, and a budget computer just will not do it. And getting your head around that cutting process will also be a serious challenge to your internal computer - your brain.

If on the other hand what you really mean is that you want to be able to edit between 20 and 30 shots together, then of course you can do that on Lightworks. Your computer power is not particularly important for that. And bear in mind that feature films are edited on the same version of Lightworks that you can download here for free. They will have way more shots than 20 or 30 (unless they're Hitchcock's "Rope").
Last Edit: 4 months, 2 weeks ago by jwrl.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197101

  • hugly
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As a mobile solution, I run Lightworks on a Macbook Air from 2012, equipped with a dual core i5, 4 GB RAM and onboard Intel 4000 graphics, a quite low powered system compared with the mid range computers of today (and your current system) and, Lightworks runs great on that machine, with the media I use and the purposes I use it for. Since internal proxies have been invented with V14.0 and support of variable frame rate with V14.5, I even don't care much about the media I use. Only export and transcoding times are quite long (compared with what I'm used to on my desktops).

VBR wrote:
However, I would like to know if anyone is having success running it on an i5 4xxx.

Do you have trouble running Lightworks on your existing system?
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Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197104

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jwrl wrote:
If, as a complete beginner, you're using the term "multicam" in a different way to us, some clarification may be in order. If you want to synchronise 20-30 shots into one group and cut between them on the fly, then good luck. That is going to tax even the most powerful computer, and a budget computer just will not do it. And getting your head around that cutting process will also be a serious challenge to your internal computer - your brain.

If on the other hand what you really mean is that you want to be able to edit between 20 and 30 shots together, then of course you can do that on Lightworks. Your computer power is not particularly important for that. And bear in mind that feature films are edited on the same version of Lightworks that you can download here for free. They will have way more shots than 20 or 30 (unless they're Hitchcock's "Rope").


I watched the Multicam tutorial video on here, & didn't know there was another way of doing it. It doesn't matter how I edit the footage together, as long as it gets done in the most effective way possible. The video also has to be synced to the millisecond throughout, even though the beginnings of each clip will be out of sync. I'm trying to build the best system possible on my tight budget that will let me do what I need to do.


hugly wrote:
Do you have trouble running Lightworks on your existing system?


My current PC will be 16 years old this July, & is way below the recommended specs so it's not even possible, hence me building a new one for video editing & gaming as per my original post.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 2 weeks ago #197108

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VBR wrote:
... I already have an i5 4690k...
... Will lightworks run on a gaming graphics card instead like an NVIDIA GTX 770 or GTX 980?...

Lightworks also works with the I5 integrated GPU. If your motherboard is designed for this, a separate graphics card is not mandatory. This depends on what you want to do with Lightworks. Because Lightworks mainly uses the GPU for effects, the advantage of a fast graphics card depends on the effects used and their number/complexity. The project settings in combination with the effects used essentially result in the GPU load. Therefore, within certain limits the project settings can be optimized to allow a smooth preview even with complex effects.

Required V-RAM also depends on project settings and effects. Partly also from the material. Especially dynamic zooming into high resolution images can require a lot of V-RAM.

Because you also want to use your PC for gaming, you'll need a powerful graphics card anyway. I don't have any experience with the compatibility of the GA Z77 and its graphics drivers.
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Windows 10, 64 Bit
Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197261

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VBR wrote:
I'm building a budget PC for video editing & gaming ... I'm thinking of using a RAID 0 SSD set up for my scratch drive, as I have 2x SATA III & 4x SATA II connections on the mobo. What would be fastest/best; 2x SSDs on the SATA III, or 4x SSDs on the SATA II, or would they be about the same speed?

I would have thought that 4 SSDs would not exactly qualify for a budget PC. You won't gain much in any case by using them in a RAID configuration. In another thread you're talking about an external HDMI capture device when screen capture software would probably meet your needs - again, not exactly "budget", I would have thought.

I really think that you should sort out your priorities. Concentrate on your CPU/GPU combination, then your RAM, then your media storage. Don't weaken your PC by using a less than ideal CPU, then spend a bucket of money on peripherals. It's false economy. If you want to use RAID for media storage (Lightworks doesn't use scratch drives) then you don't really need SSDs. My RAID 5 setup after seven years is still doing sterling work for video editing using four 2 TB hard drives, although admittedly I don't do much 4K work. To get that capacity with SSDs would be vastly more expensive even at today's prices, and would have nowhere near the long-term reliability.

I'm not against SSDs - in their place. My boot drive is a single 1 TB SSD, which I ensure that I regularly backup to external USB drives. My advice? Save the money that you were going to spend on the SSD storage and the Magewell HDMI capture device and buy the best i7 CPU you can afford and 32 GB of reliable high speed RAM instead - unless of course your real need is to be able to boast to your friends about having 4 SSDs in a RAID configuration.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197269

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jwrl wrote:
I would have thought that 4 SSDs would not exactly qualify for a budget PC. You won't gain much in any case by using them in a RAID configuration.


120GB SSDs drives are £17 each, which is way cheaper than HDDs, & are certainly within my budget. What I was hoping to gain from striping 4 together, according to my research, is bandwidth for multicam editing (I would not be using it for storage, just streaming, deleting everything afterwards). 1 SSD drive = 540MB/s, 4 SSDs in a RAID 0 configuration = just over 2 GB/s. Unless my research or understanding thereof is flawed. It was based on the following article; www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/video/tips-and-solutions/hard-drive-solutions-video-editing-studios


jwrl wrote:
I really think that you should sort out your priorities. Concentrate on your CPU/GPU combination, then your RAM...buy the best i7 CPU you can afford and 32 GB of reliable high speed RAM instead...


As I said in the OP I already have an i5 & RAM (as well as a motherboard). Let me clarify; it was given to me by a mate, & I will be building a system around it. My priorities are to buy the best gear for that kind gift, which I have already done since posting this thread. I doubt I could afford a new i7, or high performance RAM, let alone everything else I'd need on top of it. What I already got will have to do.


jwrl wrote:
In another thread you're talking about an external HDMI capture device when screen capture software would probably meet your needs - again, not exactly "budget", I would have thought...Save the money that you were going to spend on the SSD storage and the Magewell HDMI capture device...


Software will not meet my needs, as I will mainly be capturing from external sources, not from my PC. So, I definitely need a hardware capture device. The Magewell captures uncompressed video, which when converted to ProRes 422, or similar, won't put as much strain on my i5 (because I was told that heavily compressed videos use a lot of processing power as it needs to decompress them). Using ProRes 422 will, however, create bigger files, which will need more transfer speed, hence me thinking about a RAID 0 set up.

For now, I won't be using a RAID array, but will just be testing out what I've got & seeing what it can do before deciding if I want or need anything else.
Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197270

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VBR wrote:
For now, I won't be using a RAID array, but will just be testing out what I've got & seeing what it can do before deciding if I want or need anything else.

That's a good approach, from my point of view.

Some thoughts as background information:

In general, Lightworks uses the GPU for the display and for effects, all the rest is done by the CPU, in particular file I/O, encoding and decoding of AV streams, internal data transfer and the GUI. In other words, the main worker in Lightworks is the CPU and limits the achievable performance in first place.

With PC games things are different. There, the GPU is the main worker, but that isn't true when capturing game console output. In this case, you need a powerful capture card, but all this hasn't much to do with Lightworks.

Talking about capturing uncompressed video and converting to ProRes422 afterwards, beside of transfer rates, you shouldn't underestimate file size and conversion times. Uncompressed 1080p60 4:2:2 creates a data rate of nearly 2 GigaBits per second. This is 15 GigaBytes per minute, close to 1 TeraByte per hour of recording. ProRes422 squeezes this down, depending on the content, by the factor 5-10, but still 100-200 GByte/h will remain. This requires a lot of mass storage. You are right that prices per unit of SSDs don't seem to be very high, but when comparing the costs per terabyte with HDDs, you'll see there's a huge difference. In raid arrays you have to double (or more) the costs per terabyte. Furthermore, software raids on low powered CPUs don't run well (in terms of performance) and dedicated hardware-based raid controllers don't fit in the concept of a budget PC, in my view.

Finally, converting to ProRes422, with whatever software (there isn't much choice on Windows), is based on CPU processing and comparably slow, even on beefed machines. I can imagine that you won't be very happy with the 'capture uncompressed, convert to ProRes' workflow on a budget PC.
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Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by hugly.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197274

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VBR wrote:
3) I have this crazy ass idea about multicam editing with anywhere between 20 to 30 video tracks ...

Edit: (24 fps-Projekt)

I experimented a bit with the multicam bin:
(I do not have SSD drives.)

I imported 30 media (mp4).
Lightworks created proxys of the smallest resolution (H.264, 240, low).
If the "Concurrent Players" multicam function is switched off (no live editing), all 30 clips are synchronized correctly. In this mode, synchronization takes place after the playhead stops. Despite compressed H.264, mp4 proxies, my hard drive was the limiting factor in this setup.
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Edit: The proxies are on J, the original files on K
After stopping the playhead, it took about 5 seconds on average until all clips in the bin had synchronized. A faster drive would certainly speed up this process.

The real-time option "Concurrent Players" does not work at all with 30 clips on my system. Lightworks always hung without CPU or drive activity. Unfortunately, Lightworks automatically switches back to "Concurrent Players" when I change the bin, or leave the project.

Depending on what you want to do in the details, there are probably more convenient workflows.
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Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by schrauber.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197275

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Thanks Hugly, some very helpful information there.

Most of my captures will be 720p/30 (with the occasional 1080p/30), & if I have to compress to ProRes 422 as I capture no worries, & I'll be happy with that. They will also be very short videos, 10 to 15 minutes max. I just want to get the best set up I can within my budget, & create the best quality videos I can. I'm all up for compromising when & where necessary.

As the title of this thread says I'm a total noob when it comes to these things, & will learn from you guys now & when I start experimenting. I have been doing some research, but have a long way to go still.

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.


schrauber wrote:
I experimented a bit with the multicam bin:
(I do not have SSD drives.)...Despite compressed H.264, mp4 proxies, my hard drive was the limiting factor in this setup...A faster drive would certainly speed up this process.


Thank you so much for doing this test! If I understand correctly it's just as I suspected, it's the transfer rate of the drive that matters more than the CPU. Spreading the load over multiple drives would give more bandwidth, hence better performance. Either RAID 0, or different tracks on different drives, both would improve performance. I'm pleasantly surprised that your i5 is only using 18% while doing Multicam with 30 videos, even though their proxies.


schrauber wrote:
If the "Concurrent Players" Multicam function is switched off (no live editing)....The real-time option "Concurrent Players" does not work at all with 30 clips on my system.


So, I take it is possible to do non-real-time Multicam? Ideally, I'd like to switch between syncronised concurrent videos via a pre-scripted automation track, & not by clicking on them with my mouse in real-time. It would offer much more precision & be my preferred method. Is this possible in Lightworks?
Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by VBR.

Re: Total Noob With Loads of Noob Type Questions... 4 months, 1 week ago #197276

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VBR wrote:
Most of my captures will be 720p/30 (with the occasional 1080p/60), & if I have to compress to ProRes 422 as I capture no worries, & I'll be happy with that.

Could you tell how you will compress to ProRes422 as you capture. I'm not aware of many recording devices (recording software respectively) which can do that (on Windows).

Edit: None of the devices I'm aware of fits in my picture of low budget, but I'm surely not a video capturing specialist.
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Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by hugly.
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