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TOPIC: Ability to save

Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51322

  • rebelone
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I am just asking for a "Save as" button.

I just think I lost all my work, which was four hours of work. It seems LW saves constantly. But, I have no idea where those saved files are. So, now that I have closed the program, I can't find the material.

What is LW's thinking on this? I mean, ALL other software--including spreadsheets, word processing, statistical packages, database packages, project management software, whatever--has a "save" and usually also a "save as" option. This is so widespread that it is always a trusty life preserver, especially for someone starting out with the program. Its seeming removal seems to imply LW thinks that undo/redo is a full substitute. It is not. What if I did 50-100 steps forward to see what I thought about something. Do I have to undo undo undo undo undo undo . . . undo undo until I get to the step just before the step I realized I was starting to digress? Why can't I just save the file at that point instead? More important today, how do I now find all those saves that I never specifically made? When I restart the program, and go to the project, nothing is there?

I am beginning my evaluation of LW. If this is as non-computer intuitive as it seems, I'll have to look elsewhere. Although I was planning on paying the license fee, there is no cost of software low enough for me to risk having to repeatedly redo (and have my employees redo) work because we could not save files.

Help me out here. Did I just miss where this option is located? Are my files someplace and I can get the work I've already done? Or, barring that, is a "Save as" option going to be provided soon and, if not, why not?

Thanks!
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51323

  • briandrys
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Welcome.

Run "Search", select edits and clips and you'll find your missing material.

When beginning a new project create a permanent bin and a permanent rack to place the bin. Place your clips inside the bin and they won't disappear. Basically, everything goes from view because there's not yet somewhere for Lightworks to put them. Creating the bins etc. encourages good editing practises by the user.

There are Shark Byte videos which are worth checking out.
Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by briandrys.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51324

  • rhinox202
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Firstly, as briandrys said, check out the Shark Bytes videos and Official Video Tutorials. Unless you are willing to just tinker until you figure things out, this should be your first step. You should also check out the "User Guide" and "Hints and Tips" documentation on the Downloads page.

Secondly, Lightworks has been around for 20+ years and in all that time a "Save as" button was not needed or used to created tons of Hollywood movies. Why is it needed now? Also, when asking for a "Save As" button, you are in fact requesting an "Open" button as well. Because what's the point of saving something if you can't later open it. The way that Lightworks was designed allows you to forget about that process and focus on the actual work... your editing.

My apologies if any of that was too forceful or condescending. Now for what you should do, for what you want to do.

What if I did 50-100 steps forward to see what I thought about something. Do I have to undo undo undo.

Nope! Should you decide to try a different avenue with your Edit, all you have to do is click the "Make Copy" icon (4th icon down on right-side of a viewer) effectively performing a "Save as" for that Edit. The tile that appears can be gone back to later should you decide that the 50-100 steps forward you took was the wrong direction. They can also be stored in permanent Bins, as briandrys described, for later use or as an archive of sorts. Again, watching the videos will be helpful in this area.

p.s. This forum is a very helpful place. Most questions have already been answered, so do a Search before asking. Should you wonder why Lightworks does something the way it does, ask and someone will tell you. And again... welcome!
Intel Core 2 Quad (Q6600) :: 4GB :: 256GB SSD :: 1TB HD :: EVGA Geforce GTX 1050 Ti :: Win 10 Pro (1709) :: Lwks 14.1 Beta
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51330

  • jwrl
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rhinox202 wrote:
Should you decide to try a different avenue with your Edit, all you have to do is click the "Make Copy" icon (4th icon down on right-side of a viewer) effectively performing a "Save as" for that Edit. The tile that appears can be gone back to later should you decide that the 50-100 steps forward you took was the wrong direction.

This simple technique hides another significant difference between Lightworks and some other non-linear editors. To explain it I'll need to backtrack a little.

Professional editors routinely make copies of their edits at key points in the cut for just the reason that rhinox202 suggests. However with some NLEs on long form work this also means that they must increase the number of bins that they use to prevent the system slowing down with every copy.

The reason is simple: in those NLEs edits and master clips are stored as part of the bin file contents. Every time that you duplicate an edit you increase the size of your bin dramatically, and all that data must be buffered. That means large bins, bulk memory use, and increasingly reduced performance. It's even possible to make a bin unusable with that type of NLE.

When you duplicate an edit in LW all that you are putting in the bin is a very small amount of data that tells Lightworks where to find that edit. The edit is actually stored elsewhere, outside the bin. This is one of the reasons that LW performs better than most other NLEs on older, slower systems.

So if the reason that you haven't used the "Make Copy" function is because of bad experiences with other NLEs, give it a try. You might be agreeably surprised.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51342

  • rebelone
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Reading the comments, I reiterate my feature request for "Ability to Save."

I do, however, wanna say thanks for your help. I really mean that. I am a newbie in this software and appreciate the ability to ask questions and that there are people willing to answer. I have a tough skin, I can take the "search" suggestion and others. But, to clarify:

First, I did make the bin permanent, by renaming it from import to something else.

Second, I saw the search feature, but as I had only done 1 project, and all files begin exactly the same, it seemed idiotic to search for something. Again, a counterintuitive aspect--search when there's only one thing that exists, and one is looking right at the place where it was last seen. Anyway, . . .

Third, there's no reason save has to go in the bin. You could allow users to "Save" anywhere they want. Perhaps I'd save to an archive on my machine, a terabyte disk or something. So, space is no reason to not allow one to "Save". In other words, let the user manage their space, don't remove functionality to prevent problems that in this day of gigantic memory and storage won't necessarily be a problem. I understand the bin metaphor, but (unless I am horribly mistaken about how computers work) that's what it is, a metaphor--there is no physical bin on one's machine, just a bunch of file pointers organized to present the material as if it is located in a bin. As such, it is very open to broadening or augmentation--there is no necessary reason the bin metaphor implies save must write to what is currently defined as a bin.

However, and fourth, what I am really hearing is:

A)LW has not had a save facility for 20 years.
B)Thus it has not needed an "open" button either.
C)And, hey, we use something called "Make Copy" that has exactly the same functionality as save.

Given C, why the statement of A and B? How do people "open" those "made copies"? The "open" issue appears to be a red herring.

So, this seems like much ado about nothing--I just needed to know the "Make copy" possibility for future reference, and to use search to find something that should be there when I open the project. Okay. However, from the new user perspective, that someone suggests newbies need a tutorial in order to save any work is something else red--it's a red flag that maybe this is not quite the right software for me (and, I suspect, many others). I'm a big fan of tutorials--but some things don't belong in a tutorial for a software package (e.g., first, turn on your machine, . . .). To make sense of that assertion, perhaps I should tell you why I am here. I am considering a move from Windows to Linux (or, if that fails, Apple). I currently have this running on Windows, but hope to switch OS in the next few months. Basically, I don't want a touchscreen for my desktop (and though TS is a small part of Win8, once it takes hold it'll be like mice--you can't do some things without it). I've used unix machines and various flavors of linux before (prior to editing), and I am opening my own shop now that will need one or more editors (more as it grows). My reason to move from Windows is that with Win8 they just threw away all the capital everyone in XP (and most in Win7) have been developing and relying on for 20 years. Computers are like cars--there's some room for idiosyncrasy, but some things just have to be there and be like every other car. No, you can't put the steering wheel in the trunk, nor can you label the windshield wipers something like "window massagers" for the unfamiliar (e.g., a rental car driver, a relative, and so on) will not know to punch that button when they get showered by some puddle some truck throws up, and that can cause an accident. Twenty years ago there was less of an installed user base, and such idiosyncrasy was both cute and useful for discovering what works best. Now, 20 years on, we have learned some practical facts of user interface, and monkeying with the features about which those facts are known just gets in the way of adoption beyond those who adopted early on. I'm not saying there'll be no new adopters, I'm just saying it will be fewer than it otherwise would be, because it's just an unnecessary barrier--Make Copy=Save, so why name it differently, and why bury it so deep a tutorial is required to learn of its existence? Do you know how long I spent looking for a save button before I shut down the software (I had to go)? Do you know how less persistent many people can be and will likely just chalk their failure to find a save button up to poor software design? And, they'd be right--having something called "Make copy" buried somewhere so you have to use a tutorial to find it, when it has basically the same functionality as the missing "Save" button, and save is a basic function (kinda like "Start software" which you do by clicking on it, no tutorial needed)--is just poor design, even if it is idiosyncratic, even if it has been that way for 20 years.

I had such high expectations for LW I almost plunked down the purchase price the same day I installed the software, but now I'm glad I did not. Going forward, I'd like to make my decision on something really pivotal like, say, workflow. But, really, how can I employ people to help me if I can't piggy-back on the fact that they've used other software in their life (spreadsheets, e-mail packages, and so forth, all which call "Make copy" by its more popular name--"Save") and capitalize on that knowledge in my shop. In economics terms, I don't mind investing in people's specific human capital (i.e., the things they need to know to do the job I'm hiring them to do in my shop), but I don't want to invest in their general human capital (things they need to know to do the same job in any shop, i.e., open the software, save a file, and so on (usually "reading" is an example of general human capital).). The former investment is good because both employer and employee benefit, the latter is unwise because I'd basically be subsidizing the training costs of every other business. That's why idiosyncratic software is resisted by businesses--witness the low uptake of Win8 in businesses, for a graphic contemporary example.

Anyway, I'll use the Make Copy function for now. And I'll search to see if all the placing of material on the timeline I did earlier vanished. I did like that part of the workflow (i.e., marking the "in" and then using the current frame as the out, and so on). I appreciate the suggestions and will act on them. But I also will say that while experts can teach programmers a thing or two, so can newbies. After all, those who aren't newbies were not hindered by the issue I (or other newbies) raise. But how many others dumped the program, or never even tried it, because of something so simple being placed so deep into the program that you need a tutorial to know of its existence?

There's a massive opportunity here with the porting to linux. I wrote Adobe (as did many others) to try to get them to bring out a linux version of Premiere. I am here because they stuck their head in the sand. The question is, will a commitment to jarring idiosyncrasy about something so small, yet so essential, lead LW to fumble away the opportunity Adobe's stubborness, Mickeysoft's arrogance, and Apple's cost has provided?

We will see.

Respectfully yours,

R1
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51346

  • khaver
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With most other apps if they crash before you "save" you've lost everything. Not so with Lightworks. Just open it up again and you're right where you left off. You're confusing "save" with "save copy". Lightworks' "save copy" is called "make copy". The continuous save feature is one of the features that sets it apart from other NLEs and other apps. This is a feature that once you know it exists you wish other apps had.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51347

  • rebelone
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Continually saving automatically by the program is not mutually exclusive of allowing the user to also save.

Also, save in all software always saves a copy. The "original" is in what functions as memory (e.g., RAM), the "copy" is written (i.e., "saved") someplace else.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51348

  • khaver
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If its always saving why does the user need to issue some sort of save command? When you start most applications they are in an unsaved state. With Lightworks you create a project first. This is the equivalent of issuing the save command. From then on any changes in that project are continually being saved. If you want to "save a copy" of the project at a particular point in time you can export a Lightworks backup. If you want to save a copy of the edit you're working on use the Make Copy command from the edit. There just is no need for what you call a "save" command.

The beauty of Lightworks is that it doesn't keep your changes in RAM until you hit a save button. It's always saving them to disk.
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Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by khaver.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51349

  • rebelone
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So, if I understand you:

1)LW is always saving so I don't need to save.
2)Starting a project itself is a save command.
3)Every time I make ANY change LW saves the result.
4)If I want to Save (a copy) I can export a LW backup.
5)If I want to Save the current version I can "Make Copy.

Okay. So, why these five ways to do the same thing, but such resistance to just *one* *more* *way* that happens to be exactly the way that 90%+ of the newbies who come to the software will expect?

To answer your question of "If its always saving why does the user need to issue some sort of save command?", well, if no "sort of save command" is needed, why are there 2-4 other save commands in addition to the automatic save. And what is LW getting by calling them everything BUT save and burying them so much you need a tutorial to know they exist?

My answer is I may want to save for many reasons, and I may want to write the save to my own preferred location. We call a spade a spade; why not call a save a save?

In short, it is already apparent that LW knows users need to save (and need to be able to do so when they want to do so, else there'd be no "Make Copy" possibility). The only question now is, why the reluctance to make it easy by 1)using the label 99% of all other software for all other tasks uses and 2)placing it as an option on the left-hand side toolbar?

Respectfully,

R1
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51351

  • jwrl
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While I appreciate your point about new users often seeing the flaws in existing software, new users with preconceived ideas can see flaws where few exist. You ask for an ability to save; it's already there. Lightworks does it with every operation that the user makes.

Other edit software that provides a separate save function does it because it's necessary to do so. Most of those NLEs do background backups at fixed intervals. In that case if you don't explicitly save your project as you go you can potentially lose everything in the case of a crash or catastrophic failure.

So Lightworks has already saved the project. What then would a user activated save command achieve? It would reduce the number of undo levels available to you, because an update will push an undo save off the stack while duplicating the last automatic save.

And before you say that it wouldn't need to be so, you're right. You could definitely set up a model that would work around this effect. It would probably require keeping parallel streams of saved edits or alternatively overwriting the last auto save. The first has the potential to add confusion to media management, the second is a pointless overwriting of a file with a new one containing exactly the same data.

But you main concern appears to be the need to provide some form of "Save As..." function. This functionality is already present as well, and in a rather more flexible form than a simple "Save As..." function. You can use "Make Copy" to duplicate your cuts to give you a fallback point with very little penalty, as already explained.

You can also create a new room in the same project and create a complete new workspace in that room. This can work with the same media pool but allows you to set up unique environments for specific operations. It can be a good way of hiding variant cuts until you're ready to show them to the world, for example.

Finally, khaver's suggestion about using the backup faciity to save a copy of your current project may also address your problem. This function allows you to have as many versions of your entire project on your system as you could wish. If you mentally label that as "Save As..." and project restore as "Open" it should pretty much meet your needs.
Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by jwrl.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51352

  • khaver
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First of all they're not the same thing. Second, 1, 2 and 3 go together. When you create a project you are setting up the database that holds all that projects information. In the pro version you have the option of where that project database is located. When you start doing work in a project everything is saved in the database. In fact all NLEs work this way. As you work in a project you're doing nothing more than adding information to a database that records how the program should use your media. Lightworks is continually updating the database as you work where other programs require you to "save" to commit the changes in RAM to disk. In Lightworks if you want to "freeze" your entire project at a particular time you export a backup. If you want to experiment with changes to an edit within the project you're working on, you make a copy of the edit so you can go back to it if the experimentation doesn't pan out.

Doh. Jwrl, you type faster than I do.
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Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by khaver.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51353

  • rebelone
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jwrl writes:

So Lightworks has already saved the project. What then would a user activated save command achieve? It would reduce the number of undo levels available to you, because an update will push an undo save off the stack while duplicating the last automatic save.

And then jwrl writes:

But you main concern appears to be the need to provide some form of "Save As..." function. This functionality is already present as well, and in a rather more flexible form than a simple "Save As..." function. You can use "Make Copy" to duplicate your cuts to give you a fallback point with very little penalty, as already explained.

So, basically, what I hear is "No one needs to save, and, by the way, here's how you save." Fine, that works for me. But, realize, few newbies are gonna get this far. They'll install the free version, muck around a bit, fail to find a save option, kill the program, uninstall it, and move on. Seems a high price for the developers to pay just so they can label "Save" something other than "Save." I mean, it's not like computers are new technology and you can just name anything anything you want--at least, not if you want to communicate beyond the existing user base. But, hey, I'm not on the development team, so. I'll just consider this as I indicated, and re-open myself to considering other software. I'm not saying I for sure am gonna dump this after the trial. And, if it were just me, maybe it'd mean nothing. But I have a staff to (eventually) hire, and that is definitely a negative mark against any package that requires a detailed explication for such a basic functionality. I'd rather save the detailed explication for things like "bins" and "racks" for people who have not used such concepts.

In the end, all I've really asked for is 1)pin the "Make copy" option to the left toolbar and 2)Rename it "Save." Evidence in favor of my suggestion is that for 10 hours this has been discussed, when if it had already been implemented a newbie would never have even needed to raise the question. In fact, *every* first time user could conduct this key aspect of their work with no guidance whatsoever. That this--a location change and a label change for something users clearly need (else why would LW supply it) and all software includes--is a contested idea makes me wonder whether investing the time of my future staff in LW will only open me up to later oddities that'll bite me and my projects in the butt.

Oh well. A high-quality program for video-editing that is relatively reasonable in cost and runs on linux? I guess it WAS too good to be true.

Respectfully,

R1
Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by rebelone. Reason: confusing typo (I wrote "uses" instead of "user")
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51354

  • briandrys
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One thing you're forgetting is the ergonomics of the current arrangement. By having "make copy" in a menu drop from the tile you don't need to move your mouse from that location up to the tool bar. It's a more efficient method of doing the operation, this becomes important when you're a professional editor and you're repeating these operations many times. From my understanding, Lightworks' "make copy" is doing something different to the "save as" found in most software.

Lightworks isn't unique in not having "save as", neither of my accounts programs have it.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51355

  • jwrl
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rebelone wrote:
what I hear is "No one needs to save, and, by the way, here's how you save."

That's unfortunate. It isn't what I said. The "Save" and "Save As..." functions are two different things. In the same way, autosave, "Make Copy", and "Backup Project" aren't the same thing either.

rebelone wrote:
Oh well. A high-quality program for video-editing that is relatively reasonable in cost and runs on linux? I guess it WAS too good to be true.

You obviously aren't happy with the way that Lightworks works. There are alternatives. Maybe one of those will suit you better.
Last Edit: 7 years, 6 months ago by jwrl.
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Re: Ability to save 7 years, 6 months ago #51356

  • jwrl
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briandrys wrote:
From my understanding, Lightworks' "make copy" is doing something different to the "save as" found in most software.

That's quite true. It would be better described as "Save As at the edit level only".

But in any case from his last comment it's reasonably clear that rebelone is not interested in persevering. Pity.
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