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TOPIC: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here"

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 3 days ago #218687

  • hugly
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I've been wondering for a long time why Editshare hasn't picked up one of so many suggestions of members of this forum for improving the handling of transitions in a way that even people who don't know, or have trouble to understand, what an inline-transitions is can handle it.

With 2020.1 release another chance has passed by.
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Last Edit: 1 week, 3 days ago by hugly.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 3 days ago #218693

  • briandrys
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All the suggestions to date have required the user to understand the concept of the timeline symbolically representing an overlap of two clips within a single track. That, if you join together the ends of two clips or subclips, you won't have the spare frames for the overlap.

Experimenting before you try it an actual project is probably the best way to see how it works.

The consumer editors probably just do a crude automatic deletion of frames, which mat work with basic edits, but it can throw out the timings if applying transitions in a more complex edit,

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 3 days ago #218694

  • hugly
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Some high end color grading software with attached NLE shows this:

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Perhaps they've anticipated long ago that not only A-list editors and colorists will use their software?
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Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 3 days ago #218698

  • briandrys
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Perhaps so, but you really need to understand what's going on and what they mean by handles in order to make full sense of that message.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 3 days ago #218702

  • jwrl
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I don't think that it is ever going to be possible to word any message about this so that it's immediately understandable to people with no background knowledge. Personally, I think that pfbr6a's is the best explanation that I've seen about what's going on with a dissolve, but how you would condense that into a simple on-screen message I do not know.

What it really comes down to is that a basic level of knowledge is required to get the best out of any tool. If someone can't grasp the concept of needing to allow for an overlap to be able to produce a dissolve no warning message of any sort is going to help. The current message is as good as any, in my opinion.

I certainly don't believe that any form of automated adjustment is a good idea. We will be trading a series of questions about "insufficient media" messages to a series along the lines of "I added a dissolve and now the end of my shot has gone" or "I added a dissolve and now my sound is out of sync by A LOT".
Last Edit: 1 week, 3 days ago by jwrl.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 2 days ago #218772

  • pfbr6a
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I'm glad you find my explanation clear, but I'm also optimistic that there are things that the program can do to help make things even clearer.

Most simply, the wording could be changed: when you butt-up two long shots and then try to do a dissolve between them, the mssage "there is insufficient outgoing and incoming media" seems entirely wrong - *of course* there's enough media, the shots are far longer than the transition, so what is it on about?

The problem is that it's telling you the wrong thing: there's not insufficient media, but an insufficient *overlap*. So a first obvious step would be to say so:

"The outgoing and incoming media do not overlap enough for this transition"

Better, and very easy to implement:

"This 24-frame transition cannot be performed because there is not enough overlap. The cut is less than 24 frames before the end of the outgoing clip (and/or less than 24 frames after the start of the incoming clip.)

Even better, the program can tell you the latest timecode that can work for the out-point on the outgoing clip, and the earliest timecode for the inpoint on the incoming clip.

And better yet, it can offer to select the area around the cut which has to be removed for there to be sufficient overlap. The selection would apply to all active tracks, to avoid sync issues, and if you were happy all you would have to do (and it can explain this) is to press delete.

These kinds of explanatory dialogues take a very short time to implement, and avoid a lot of confusion.
Last Edit: 1 week, 2 days ago by pfbr6a.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 2 days ago #218777

  • jwrl
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pfbr6a wrote:
And better yet, it can offer to select the area around the cut which has to be removed for there to be sufficient overlap. The selection would apply to all active tracks, to avoid sync issues, and if you were happy all you would have to do (and it can explain this) is to press delete.

That's where I would have to differ.

Because it would apply to all active tracks there is still potential for disaster. I know that you can't protect everyone from their own mistakes. You would at least need to make it extremely clear in your warning message that there was potential for disaster if not all tracks were selected. And when I say "extremely clear" I mean that it would almost need to be of the level of "See Spot. Spot is a dog. Spot can run. See Spot run".

There is a level beyond which I think that it's not really possible to go to protect people from themselves.
Last Edit: 1 week, 2 days ago by jwrl.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 2 days ago #218783

  • RWAV
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Agree with jwrl - blind adjustment of all tracks to overcome a lack of transition head/tail by cutting out material is a recipe for confusion in multi V/A track timelines - when often a cleaner solution might be to simply slip a clip by a few frames to fit the transition.

Way back when user 'protection' in the form of refusal to make a flawed transition became the norm; the view here was, and remains, that it's better to have the option to make the transition as requested but also issue a warning. Much easier to adjust the in/out clips by intelligently trimming rather than blindly cutting out a prescribed number of frames on both sides of the failed transition.

If the issue is insufficient clip head or tail then an interface warning - complete with markers and if necessary an optional flashing advice whenever the play-head is on or passes through the transition would be good.

Further, again optionally, a final integrity check prior to export/playout might be useful - there could be number of anomalies included in a check-routine. In may look a little like the old database check before recording. Given that possibly users making quite long videos, game-play or whatever, may never actually watch a pre-export playback it may also be a very valuable addition to the toolset.
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Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218797

  • pfbr6a
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I don't share your concerns, which I think stem from your approaching it as very experienced users.

I'm approaching this from the other perspective: chj, who started this thread, just glued a couple of clips together, hoped to be able to create a transition between them, and - very reasonably - couldn't make sense of the resultant error message.

That kind of simple editing is how everyone starts out: what are the chances that you are an inexperienced editor, you are making an end-to-end edit, don't know about handles, and *also* have a complex audio-track layout where not all tracks are selected and deleting a selection could cause sync-problems? Essentially none at all, I'd say.

So if the program marked up your edit, explained why, and offered you the chance of a one-click fix, there's no real chance of 'disaster'.

On the other hand, if you're an experienced user who *does* have a complex audio-layout, you'll also (apart from knowing about handles in the first place) be exactly the kind of person who knows that making the deletion will cause trouble, and will press Cancel instead - because to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the program does anything automatically, just that it sets up a solution for you, and then offers the choice of using it or not.

And really, 'disaster'? If you do accept the deletion offered, and you shouldn't have because you have a coplex audio-layout with not all tracks active, all that has happened is that some tracks are now out of sync. Happens all the time, the program tells you about it, and you know what to do next because you are, after all, an experienced user.

So no, I stand by my solution.
Last Edit: 1 week, 1 day ago by pfbr6a.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218801

  • hugly
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In fact the message appeared when inventing the concept of 'Safe trimming' with V14.0. Prior to that, Lightworks just created invalid transitions (from to black) on insufficient overlap, without any message.

There have been endless discussions, starting with V14.0 beta, about the message with many ideas to improve the given information and related workflows. Also, I pointed out multiple times that Lightworks isn't alone on the market and there are competitors which simply do it better, not only dealing with insufficient overlap, but also with applying and trimming transitions in general. Since this has been ignored all together, I believe that the Lightworks designers shares the opinion that people who want to use a transition have to learn the concept of overlapping media first, and ways how to create some if it isn't sufficient.

In other words: I think, sharing ideas for reasonable improvements on this is, most likely, just a waste of time.
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Last Edit: 1 week, 1 day ago by hugly.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218804

  • briandrys
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I suspect the background of the inexperienced Lightworks users is adding another level. I've seen this issue coming up with the top selling NLE and it being explained in a couple of sentences in other forums by saying you need handles and that being accepted.

A good transitions video tutorial by Lightworks, that explains the overlap requirements as part of making dissolves etc would go a long way as a solution. There was an early tutorial on making transitions, but it didn't go into how to ensure they would be successful.

Perhaps adding "overlap" to the message may assist in priming new users into working out what's required.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218806

  • hugly
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I'm by far more radical. Assuming that, when counting total user of Lightworks Free and Pro, 99 percent of the user are amateurs. It needs a solution which serves amateurs, and helps newbies, not just modding messages.

The most dangerous fish isn't the top selling, but the fastest growing.

Have a look into the 2020.1 user guide and try to identify changes compared to the last user guide. Then, estimate the chance to see a new official video tutorial on transitions.
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Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218807

  • briandrys
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There's nothing in doing this that the average DIY wood worker can't work out. I would assume that most of the amateurs using Lightworks want more than is offered by Movie Maker and similar consumer editors.

Providing clickatis buttons isn't really a solution.
Last Edit: 1 week, 1 day ago by briandrys.

Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218809

  • RWAV
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hugly wrote:
In fact the message appeared when inventing the concept of 'Safe trimming' with V14.0. Prior to that, Lightworks just created invalid transitions (from to black) on insufficient overlap, without any message.


The 'safe trimming' option (which was originally introduced as non-optional until it was outed as a show-stopper development - the example used at the time was that a half second spot SFX in a multi A track edit paralysing all LW trimming). That had nothing to do with the transition changes introduced at the same time.

Yes, prior to v14 LW did place 'invalid' transitions where 'black' could be seen - and if noticed was simply corrected by trimming in the most appropriate way for each occurrence. It remains the view here that this is a better option than presenting an inappropriate auto-shortened transitions or presenting no transition at all but only a well intentioned but imperfect short message. The various message options proposed in this thread are all imperfect in their own way.

The transition paradigm from v14 was and has remained problematic - in a situation where previously there was black within a transition in the current paradigm either no result or an unwanted result is presented - the work involved in deciphering and remedying the confusion is far more onerous than trimming out the black bits.

@pfbr6a you wrote
I don't share your concerns, which I think stem from your approaching it as very experienced users.
I kindly ask you to please refrain from making personal assumptions about other users. Be assured the comments are here are based on significant time spent tutoring non LW editors and inexperienced assistant editors; the usefulness of suggestions here are not contingent upon depth of LW experience, nor to talking down to less experienced operators.

There is no universally correct *one-click fix* applicable to all circumstances in this matter - a putative single stroke solution has as much chance of creating additional work as it has of making the most desirable transition.

A computer generated *solution* would need to present a series of choices for the editor's consideration - otherwise it is merely an automated *my-way-or-the-highway* proposition. In the event that a computer based option is ultimately the chosen way - then an option suggested at the v14 stage should be included - that is the option to 'place the transition as requested' warts and all. That would be the simplest and most direct path for the editor to then trim-in the best adjusted transition.
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Re: How to solve: "There is insufficient incoming outgoing... to add a transition here" 1 week, 1 day ago #218817

  • pfbr6a
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RWAV wrote:
"I kindly ask you to please refrain from making personal assumptions about other users. Be assured the comments are here are based on significant time spent tutoring non LW editors and inexperienced assistant editors; the usefulness of suggestions here are not contingent upon depth of LW experience, nor to talking down to less experienced operators."

Oh for heaven's sake, RWAV, stop taking everything as some kind of personal attack and telling me what I am allowed to write. I simply can't stand it any more, and I really don't see why I have to.

In what possible universe can describing people as "very experienced users" be taken as a negative, as you just did? And where is there anything about "talking down to less experienced operators"

This is all coming from you. Please stop it now.

Now, as it happens I absolutely *guarantee* that I have been using NLEs in general, and LW in particular, longer than anybody else whatsoever on this forum. But I do not therefore try to shut down conversations by virtue of that, and I ask you to extend me and everyone else the same courtesy.

WhatI *am* doing is expressing some ideas that my experience tells me would be helpful to new users. I am a developer of professional-level media software, and have been for a very long time indeed. Here are two rules of design that have served me very well:

1/ Try to approach everything as if you are new to it. It is very easy to become used to confusing features just because you have seen them before: your new users haven't, and there's no excuse for making them confused unnecessarily.

2/ If your program can help things be easier for users, it should: this is what computers are for.

Here's a story to illustrate that point: the very first thing I ever designed was in response to a (then) industry-leading product that grudgingly allowed you to play a section of tape by a) auto-assigning a number of its choosing to your in-point b) assigning a different number to your out-point and then c) demanding that you enter these two numbers into 'from' and 'to' fields and then hit 'exe'.

Well, what people were *actually* trying to do with such machines was play a section such as a song. So I designed a system that let you give your sections names and then press 'Goto' or 'Play' followed by enough of the name to identify it.

As I say, it's what computers are for. There were plenty of more complicated things to do with tape, and for those there were more complicated coomands: but the simple helpful ones covered most of what peole wanted to do most of the time, and made it easy for new users (mainly musicians who in those days had never worked with a computer before) to get going with a system that felt like it was trying to help them rather than get in their way.

Same in the case of 'insufficient media': having the program mark what would need to be removed to make the transition work will not give you a complete answer in all cases, but it will suffice in allthe simple ones which are what new users will be encountering.

So the new user experiences the program as being helpful, it becomes a friend rather than an obstacle, so you want to keep using it rather than switch to some other product. As time goes on, you're not a new user any more and you start doing the complex stuff - but by now you are experienced enoguh to understand the wrinkles involved.

This is simply common-sense: it's what a good teacher would do, and is the exact opposite of 'talking down' to anyone. And it's worked very well for me in my designs.

Your mileage and experience may lead you to different conclusions: fine. Just don't start stamping your feet again about some imagined slight just because you don't agree, because I've already had enough of that from you to last me several lifetimes.

OK?
Last Edit: 1 week, 1 day ago by pfbr6a.
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