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TOPIC: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template)

Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 1 month ago #196247

  • schrauber
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Hello,

To make complex routing and effect templates easier to handle, it would be nice if templates and selected parts of the routing could be grouped. A complex routing would then appear to the user only as a single effect.
To maintain flexibility, ungrouping should be possible.

I would find the following functions helpful:

- The group can be named

- The inputs and outputs of the group can be named.

- Inputs and outputs that are only used for connections within the routing are hidden after grouping.

- Effect inputs and outputs that are not connected can be defined as group inputs or hidden. Please note that a routing can have several outputs with different functions.

- Parts of the routing should be selectable for grouping.


Probably not all effect settings of the single effect are needed in the group:
- Selectable which effect settings should be visible in the group.
- Ability to rename the selected settings and regroup the settings.
- After ungrouping the routing, all original settings, names, etc. should appear.


If saved as an effect template, it would be helpful if they could be easily exported (any file naming) and imported like fx files.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 1 month ago #196254

  • arniepix
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+1!

I think this is a common feature with standalone nodal compositors.

It would also be very useful if you're saving an effects stack for, say, a lower third or a transition effect that's being repeatedly used on a show or series.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 1 month ago #196263

  • jwrl
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+1.

What may be a problem is how you would like to handle the parameters. Selectively enabling and disabling them, renaming and regrouping them in a logical and consistent manner wouldn't be simple, I would think. You would really need to be able to write a customised wrapper for the group. How that could be implemented so that it is simple and logical for the end user would be a challenge.

Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 1 month ago #196265

  • schrauber
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Right, my multitude of suggestions should not discourage developers from starting with simpler solutions first.

jwrl wrote:
You would really need to be able to write a customised wrapper for the group..

Probably, but for the user please not as code or text.

Maybe in the Setting tab:

Mouse position on a group of settings:
(Renaming is already possible)
right mouse button > hide
right mouse button > ungroup


Mouse position on a single parameter:
right mouse button > hide
right mouse button > rename


Select several parameters or groups (as in Content Manager):
right mouse button > Make > Group

Mouse position to any position in the Settings tab:
right mouse button > show original setting layout

or vice versa:
right mouse button > show customer layout

Parameters that have been hidden or renamed in the customer-specific layout could perhaps get a different color after switching? perhaps gray?

Mouse position on one or more selected parameters or groups (in the original layout):
right mouse button > Restore for the customer layout

I think this could also work independently of grouping effects.
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Windows 10, 64 Bit
Intel i5-4440 (3,1 GHz) ; Intel HD Graphics 4600
Last Edit: 1 month ago by schrauber.

Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196354

  • RWAV
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I think this is a common feature with standalone nodal compositors


Yes it is and it serves a couple of purposes - but LW has a significant difference to most of those - in LW the routing panel only shows those VFX nodes that are under the play-head at any time; the routing panel is 'dynamic'. There is no need in LW to group VFX for the purpose of reducing routing panel clutter.

Typically other nodal compositors use a 'static' routing panel all nodes on-screen all the time - whether or not they are 'active' at that position in the composition. Node based compositor's work screens can fill up massively - the one below shows 10 individual clips being all the shots in a scene being graded in one 'composition' the benefit being easy access to all shots for fine-detail comparisons and simultaneous rendering of all 10 - is any one requires further tweaking and re-render - it can be isolated and individually corrected -

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- this level of clutter simply does not apply under LW Dynamic VFX routing.

On the question of making 'VFX groups' for re-use - we have been doing exactly that with LW since LW Alacrity and continue to do that to this day. Indeed one of the most frequent usages is for common used single track must-be-exactly repetitive transitions in a project - things like a custom length fade down to a single flash/transition frame and a custom length fade up to the next shot.
Make a copy of just the VFX section of the edit - remove all but the V Track - name it and save it to a bin. To use it mark/park the entire thing and simply drop it in as required - over and over and over again -

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- but it can also be complex - in which event one would save more than just a single V section.

As an example: Based on a Tracking Demo made previously some gratuitous 3D DVE and CC VFX were added until it looks like this -

www.dropbox.com/s/bpohgvn708wh4ra/Traacking%20object%20%20with%203D%20DVE.mp4?dl=0

To use it again on other projects or distribute it - make a copy of the relevant section of edit - remove all media and save it as a LW Sequence archive - store it as necessary in a repository of useful things - restore it just add new material and all the VFX will be in place.

Here's a Zipped archive of the VFX for the above. It is from a 25fps project and should Extract and import into a other projects with all keyframing intact (it does here between systems).

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Using the above techniques one can build a fine collection of useful VFX from single track transitions to whatever level of complexity one wishes with or without keyframes.

LW has already provided the tools to do the job - users need to provide their own imagination to determine how those tools can be best used. There already exist creative solutions beyond "Mr-developer-man-bring-me-a-dream"

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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196356

  • hugly
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+ 1 for schrauber's request.

I appreciate users who invest their time bringing in ideas to improve the existing. Most don't care and grab another package for 300 USD.

Since over time I've been using more ad more other software, I find that there's a lot that can be learned from others. If you can't be the first mover due to lack of good ideas or other resources, use clever benchmarking. Continuously watch out for the best already existing solutions and if they fit into your concept, adapt them. The world of editing systems since Alacrity has changed entirely. Standstill is regression and looking back a waste of time, if future counts.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196357

  • RWAV
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Those effective sought after benefits have been available to use since Alacrity. There is nothing here about standing still or regressing - a very logical starting point for a method of saving for reuse - the meta-data within a section of an edit - is the section of the edit itself.

So save it and reuse it - that is achievable in the here and now.

Doubt the development team needs the 'busy-work' of extracting and converting something that is already extractable and reusable.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196359

  • hugly
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We are all children of the evolution, it can't be bad to evolve.
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Last Edit: 4 weeks, 1 day ago by hugly.

Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196361

  • RWAV
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Nonsense. There are countless records of destructive evolution leading to species extinction. And you would have meant 'of the revolution' of course.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196362

  • jwrl
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I've been giving some more thought to this over the last few days, playing with a couple of node-based effects systems. I have faked up something that might be a useful approach, using modified versions of two of the node-based effects used in Blender. Whether it's achievable or even particularly likely, who can say?

Let's assume you have two effects that you regularly use in combination. One, Glare.fx, has seven parameters: two enumerated choices for the type of glare and its intensity, one that controls the number of passes through the effect, a mix control, a threshold adjustment to control the highlights that will trigger the glare, and a fade parameter that controls the decay of the glare. You can rotate the effect through 45 degrees by means of a checkbox.

The second effect produces light rays from highlights and is called SunBeams.fx. It is simpler and only has two parameters: ray length and a fade parameter to control the decay. Here are the two effects in a typical configuration. Note that in "Group Edit" mode and for this exercise the parameters are shown on the effect. The normal routing display would still be as it currently is.

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When used in combination with Glare.fx you get a hot spot with star points and light rays radiating from the hot spot. When you use the two effects in combination you never move the intensity parameter from "High", and since the sun beam fade is largely governed by the glare fade, you don't really need that either. However when you group the two effects you get all of the Glare.fx parameters, followed by the SunBeams.fx parameters. This is potentially confusing, because you have two parameters with the same name that do similar things.

What would be handy would be to be able to suppress the unwanted parameters, re-order the others as you need, and of course name the effect group. What you want is to end up with something like this.

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If the parameters are displayed in the box representing the effect from an operational point of view this becomes simple. Right clicking on a parameter could cause a drop down menu to appear, with the choices "Maximise", "Minimise", "Hide" and "Delete". "Maximise" and "Minimise" would cause the parameter to either be collapsed or revealed, but still available to the user if required. The default setting would be "Maximise". If "Hide" is chosen the parameter will always have the value assigned when the group was created, and will never be available unless the group is edited. If "Delete" is chosen a similar thing will happen, but the value stored for that parameter will be the default value.

Clicking and dragging on a parameter in the group will allow it to be re-ordered, and right clicking on the group name could cause a widow similar to the "Make template.." dialogue box to appear allowing the grouped effect to be named, given a category and a subcategory, and (a useful option) the ability to add a description to the group in a similar way to the "Notes" parameter in current effects. In the example above "Ray Length" which was below "Rotate 45" has been dragged to between "Mix" and "Threshold", and the second "Fade" parameter has been hidden.

So there we go. Interesting thought experiment, no?
Last Edit: 4 weeks, 1 day ago by jwrl.

Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196364

  • hugly
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RWAV wrote:
Nonsense. There are countless records of destructive evolution leading to species extinction. And you would have meant 'of the revolution' of course.

I meant Evolution, of course, because revolution would be nonsense in this context.
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Re: Group & Ungroup Effects (Effect Routing & Effect Template) 4 weeks, 1 day ago #196365

  • hugly
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jwrl wrote:
So there we go. Interesting thought experiment, no?

Yes, it is.
It's better to travel well than to arrive...
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